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Post by Genghis on Apr 2, 2009 16:11:25 GMT
Well, no, but he's still behind Trulli, which is where he finished on Sunday. Actually, personally think that Trulli should have been third, but only because that's where he finished the race. Agree with Wibbs that a fine for Lewis would have been more appropriate, but then we don't know the scale of the "misinformation" that was given. It seems both the pit radio from both McLaren and Toyota is highly confused - making it impossible to ascertain what happened. And McLaren's telemetry apparently shows that Hamilton didn't let Trulli back through, but of course FIA wouldn't be interested in looking at anything that could proce McLaren's innocence. I've threatened this before, but I'm really feeling less and less inclinced to watch Sunday's race.
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Post by schumi on Apr 2, 2009 20:31:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2009 21:44:23 GMT
I'm completely confused now.
It seems that the events were as follows:
Trulli leaves the track and Hamilton legally passes him. McLaren tell Hamilton to allow Trulli back past. Hamilton lets Trulli back past. McLaren tell the Stewards that they didn't tell Hamilton to let him past. Recordings prove they did.
So, if I have this right, if McLaren hadn't told Lewis to let Trulli pass him, Hamilton would have legitimately been 3rd and Trulli legitimately 4th. Because McLaren deliberately lied to the Stewards to get Trulli penalised, McLaren are thrown out the race.
Is that about right?
Stupid behaviour by McLaren. Stupid rulings by the FIA.
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Post by schumi on Apr 3, 2009 5:45:57 GMT
So, if I have this right, if McLaren hadn't told Lewis to let Trulli pass him, Hamilton would have legitimately been 3rd and Trulli legitimately 4th. Because McLaren deliberately lied to the Stewards to get Trulli penalised, McLaren are thrown out the race. That's how I see it too. I just don't understand why they did it - they had nothing to gain and everything to lose.
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Post by schumi on Apr 3, 2009 10:29:27 GMT
www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5137638,00.html McLaren team boss Martin Whitmarsh has explained that Dave Ryan, their sporting director at the heart of the controversy surrounding Lewis Hamilton's disqualification from the Australian GP, has been suspended because he "was responsible for what happened" in their meeting with the stewards in Melbourne - and admitted that Hamilton himself was "not entirely truthful".
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Post by Genghis on Apr 3, 2009 11:47:32 GMT
Stupid behaviour by McLaren. Stupid rulings by the FIA. As more information comes to light, that seems to sum it up nicely. McLaren have now taken action against the person responsible. Given that Hamilton was quite candid in interviews to the press after the race but before the stewards' meetings, one can only assume that he was told to alter his story by this Ryan chap. And I still don't agree with Hamilton's disqualification from the race. He finished fourth fair and square after a great drive - he shouldn't have those points taken away. He should be fined maybe, although the much bigger fine should go to McLaren themslves. Lewis is an employee at the end of the day and not the boss.
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Post by Genghis on Apr 3, 2009 16:04:09 GMT
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) Martin, what is the procedure or the process in terms of deciding what was going to be said? You were on the pit wall and so was Ron Dennis as much as Dave and anyone else. When this process was unfolding and you knew he had to go to the stewards what was done? What happens?
MW: In truth the situation was that during this incident we were asking the stewards, well, we were asking race control, for a decision because we realised that Trulli had been let past. We did not think that was right because in fact the original overtake of Trulli was entirely legitimate as Trulli was not on the circuit. We believed that when all of the facts were presented to the stewards that they would recognise and they would restore the positions, so we asked for the race control and the stewards to look into it and Dave and Lewis went to the stewards to give their account.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) But did they talk to you about what should be said?
MW: No. They did not because it was not necessary. We knew what had happened and there was a belief that a true and honest account of that would get the result, that the positions would have been reversed.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) So what got lost in translation? Lewis gave this interview or interviews saying 'I was asked' and then said 'no' in the stewards' inquiry. Why, why did that happen?
MW: Well, I think Lewis got out of the car and gave a truthful account of what happened. I believe that whilst they were at the stewards, Dave, who had been party to what had happened in Spa, was highly sensitive and I think in the heat of the moment, his judgment was to not give a true account, and I think Lewis was then led by that.
The above shows that it's entirely wrong that Hamilton was punished. It's the McLaren who were responsible, Hamilton should not have had his points deducted.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2009 16:07:05 GMT
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) Martin, what is the procedure or the process in terms of deciding what was going to be said? You were on the pit wall and so was Ron Dennis as much as Dave and anyone else. When this process was unfolding and you knew he had to go to the stewards what was done? What happens?
MW: In truth the situation was that during this incident we were asking the stewards, well, we were asking race control, for a decision because we realised that Trulli had been let past. We did not think that was right because in fact the original overtake of Trulli was entirely legitimate as Trulli was not on the circuit. We believed that when all of the facts were presented to the stewards that they would recognise and they would restore the positions, so we asked for the race control and the stewards to look into it and Dave and Lewis went to the stewards to give their account.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) But did they talk to you about what should be said?
MW: No. They did not because it was not necessary. We knew what had happened and there was a belief that a true and honest account of that would get the result, that the positions would have been reversed.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) So what got lost in translation? Lewis gave this interview or interviews saying 'I was asked' and then said 'no' in the stewards' inquiry. Why, why did that happen?
MW: Well, I think Lewis got out of the car and gave a truthful account of what happened. I believe that whilst they were at the stewards, Dave, who had been party to what had happened in Spa, was highly sensitive and I think in the heat of the moment, his judgment was to not give a true account, and I think Lewis was then led by that.The above shows that it's entirely wrong that Hamilton was punished. It's the McLaren who were responsible, Hamilton should not have had his points deducted. You have such amazing double standards.
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Post by Genghis on Apr 3, 2009 16:10:40 GMT
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) Martin, what is the procedure or the process in terms of deciding what was going to be said? You were on the pit wall and so was Ron Dennis as much as Dave and anyone else. When this process was unfolding and you knew he had to go to the stewards what was done? What happens?
MW: In truth the situation was that during this incident we were asking the stewards, well, we were asking race control, for a decision because we realised that Trulli had been let past. We did not think that was right because in fact the original overtake of Trulli was entirely legitimate as Trulli was not on the circuit. We believed that when all of the facts were presented to the stewards that they would recognise and they would restore the positions, so we asked for the race control and the stewards to look into it and Dave and Lewis went to the stewards to give their account.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) But did they talk to you about what should be said?
MW: No. They did not because it was not necessary. We knew what had happened and there was a belief that a true and honest account of that would get the result, that the positions would have been reversed.
Q: (Jonathan Legard - BBC) So what got lost in translation? Lewis gave this interview or interviews saying 'I was asked' and then said 'no' in the stewards' inquiry. Why, why did that happen?
MW: Well, I think Lewis got out of the car and gave a truthful account of what happened. I believe that whilst they were at the stewards, Dave, who had been party to what had happened in Spa, was highly sensitive and I think in the heat of the moment, his judgment was to not give a true account, and I think Lewis was then led by that.The above shows that it's entirely wrong that Hamilton was punished. It's the McLaren who were responsible, Hamilton should not have had his points deducted. You have such amazing double standards. Hatcham - I have always believed that the result of the race should be the result of the race, not changed a week afterwards. Please show me where I've said anything to the contrary.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2009 16:14:04 GMT
You have such amazing double standards. Hatcham - I have always believed that the result of the race should be the result of the race, not changed a week afterwards. Please show me where I've said anything to the contrary. All results are liable to change, what if he was on drugs or the car had illegal advantages ?
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Post by Genghis on Apr 3, 2009 16:20:43 GMT
Hatcham - I have always believed that the result of the race should be the result of the race, not changed a week afterwards. Please show me where I've said anything to the contrary. All results are liable to change, what if he was on drugs or the car had illegal advantages ? Hatcham - but neither of the above happened. If neither car or driver is proven to be illegal, then the result should say exactly as it bloody well is. You can't start changing reuslts simply because "so-and-so said this to so-and-so". It's bloody ridiculous. And once you start doing it, it's hard to stop. Arugably this was all caused by the pathetic decision by the stewards in Spa last season. Well fuck it. Fuck Mosley, fuck the pathetic stewards, fuck the stupid McLaren team and fuck F1. I don't think I'm going to bother watching Sunday's race. What's the point if Hamilton produces another barnstorming drive (what F1 SHOULD be all about) if they're only going to take the points off him for whatever reason they can find.
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Post by schumi on Apr 3, 2009 16:34:28 GMT
Genghis, when deciding whether or not Hamilton should have been promoted a place (remember, the stewards started off looking to HELP McLaren here) they took the team’s word for it that Lewis hadn’t been told to let him pass. Effectively that meant Trulli had got in front of Hamilton illegally and was punished in McLaren’s favour.
What they didn’t bank on was the lies they were told, which, to the FIA, not only makes them look stupid and reflects badly on the FIA and the sport as a whole, but also would appear to be (at best) unsporting, and trying to manipulate a situation to get a better team penalised. Tell me you honestly believe that’s right.
And they didn’t take points off Hamilton – they disqualified McLaren. You know, the ones whose fault you said it was in the first place?
After all the kerfuffle last year with his overtaking Raikkonen you'd think theyd have known this part of the rule book inside out. McLaren have no-one to blame but themselves. Sorry, but nothing's going to change that.
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Post by schumi on Apr 3, 2009 16:38:59 GMT
The above shows that it's entirely wrong that Hamilton was punished. No it doesn't - it's one man's opinion, and not a very impartial one at that. He's got to say something to pick up the pieces - they can't exactly suspend Hamilton, can they?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2009 17:13:15 GMT
The above shows that it's entirely wrong that Hamilton was punished. It's the McLaren who were responsible, Hamilton should not have had his points deducted. If it had simply been a case of Lewis following McLaren instructions whilst in the car, i.e. letting Trulli through, then I would agree. However, the minute he deliberately lied (or "misled" the stewards) in the post race investigation he made himself personally responsible. There is only so far that the defence of "just following orders" can get you. In fairness to Lewis, he seems to have accepted what he did was wrong and publicly admitted that he was very uncomfortable doing what he did in the Stewards meeting. That seems to be an admission of guilt if ever I heard one.
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Post by Genghis on Apr 3, 2009 17:28:20 GMT
And they didn’t take points off Hamilton – they disqualified McLaren. You know, the ones whose fault you said it was in the first place? But they've also taken 5 points off Hamilton, so he's been penalised as well as the team. What's the point in watching the race, if everything changes six hours after the race and then again on the Thursday after the race? I don't see the point in watching F1 anymore - it's a pointless exercise. I'll just watch the news on a Thursday, which is when they're likely to decide the result.
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