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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 8:58:11 GMT
Some random thoughts, not aimed at anyone in particular, because I'm sure we'll see this sort of thing happen again with other riders. I guess everyone's called in to work sick at some point because they've had something else to do - a family emergency or a prior engagement they couldn't get out of. A also imagine that a doctors note was provided in this case, as the team had a facility, so no wrongdoing on their part. The problem comes if a team is knowingly granted a facility for a rider who's missing for circumstances other than what's written on the doctor's note. I'm not saying this is the case, but Leszno's P&P had been arranged for some time prior to our season starting. Obviously it wasn't Ipswich's fault there was a clash, and there was nothing they could do about it, so it's not fair they should be without their number one rider and have to replace him with a PL reserve. Why should the paying fans be deprived of seeing competitive races just because Poland have their riders by the balls? And especially with other riders missing through injury in an unimportant challenge meeting. But then, on the other hand, if the rider can't make it to a meeting, shouldn't it be tough luck? So a suggestion which should satisfy both sides of the argument: Either start handing out retrospective penalties if it's shown someone's been riding with a sick note, or change the rules to assess each situation by its own circumstances. As i have said many, many times before, i would prefer to see sides sign whomever they like and track a team of 'their own', however as the situation is what it is and riders are at liberty to sign for as many teams in as many countries as they wish, it seems rather naive to expect things to run smoothly and to plan, if a guest or r/r facility is to exist then surely it should be for ANY reason, whether through illness, injury, clash of fixtures or even if the rider in question cannot be arsed to turn up, if the latter is the case it would be then for the individual clubs and supporters to take appropriate action. The system as it stands is too open to misuse. |
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Post by Genghis on Mar 24, 2009 17:18:41 GMT
In no way is this a criticism of Peterborough or Zabik given the current difficult situation for the rider, but he's not injured, so there shouldn't be a facility. Full stop. Otherwise you end up with Tom, Dick & Harry missing for all sorts of reasons.
These sort of rules need to be tightened, not loosened.
The use of R/R and, in particular, guests should be kept to the very, very minimum.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 17:19:55 GMT
FP - in no way is this a criticism of Peterborough or Zabik given the current difficult situation for the rider, but he's not injured, so you can't use a facility. Full stop. Otherwise you end up with Tom, Dick & Harry missing for all sorts of reasons. And what would be wrong with that ? |
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Post by Genghis on Mar 24, 2009 17:23:29 GMT
FP - in no way is this a criticism of Peterborough or Zabik given the current difficult situation for the rider, but he's not injured, so you can't use a facility. Full stop. Otherwise you end up with Tom, Dick & Harry missing for all sorts of reasons. And what would be wrong with that ? Hatcham - because widespead use of guests makes the sport look Mickey Mouse, that's why. Guests should only be used when two heat leaders are missing - R/R should be used for the first missing heat leader, while Premier league riders should cover for missing EL second-strings and strings, ditto in the PL with NL riders covering for missing second strings and reserves. |
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Post by admin on Mar 24, 2009 17:24:10 GMT
These sort of rules need to be tightened, not loosened. The use of R/R and, in particular, guests should be kept to the very, very minimum. Agreed. Zabik is continuing to ride in Poland and should circumstances dictate that he can't, his Polish club will have no facility to cover his absence. That, in my view, is correct. A facility free-for-all will lead to anarchy. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 17:29:22 GMT
And what would be wrong with that ? Hatcham - because widespead use of guests makes the sport look Mickey Mouse, that's why. Guests should only be used when two heat leaders are missing - R/R should be used for the first missing heat leader, while Premier league riders should cover for missing EL second-strings and strings, ditto in the PL with NL riders covering. But to be serious for a minute Genghis, and putting aside the farcical element of the guest facility, which i presume most of us on here dislike, what would you see as the reasoning behind its invention in the first place ? And it would be nice to have a sensible discussion on speedway for a change. |
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Post by admin on Mar 24, 2009 17:37:29 GMT
And it would be nice to have a sensible discussion on speedway for a change. And so would I. But let's be realistic, hatcham, facilities are like new roads. You build them to ease congestion and find that traffic expands to fill them. The M25 is a classic example. The theory was that the M25 would be used to to circumvent London and the probability of it being used to get from one part of London to another wasn't considered. But that's what happened and the result was a clogged-up M25. It's the same with facilities - you increase the supply and the demand multiplies and often multiplies to exceed supply. You end up with teams that are operating two, three, four and more facilities. |
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Post by Genghis on Mar 24, 2009 17:42:04 GMT
Hatcham - because widespead use of guests makes the sport look Mickey Mouse, that's why. Guests should only be used when two heat leaders are missing - R/R should be used for the first missing heat leader, while Premier league riders should cover for missing EL second-strings and strings, ditto in the PL with NL riders covering. But to be serious for a minute Genghis, and putting aside the farcical element of the guest facility, which i presume most of us on here dislike, what would you see as the reasoning behind its invention in the first place ? And it would be nice to have a sensible discussion on speedway for a change. Guests were brought in so a team decimated by injuries could still be competitive. And that's why I would still like to see a team with two/three heat leaders missing to use one R/R and one or two guests in such a situation. But to cover second strings / reserves, I don't see the need for guests, and up until the late 80s, there were no facilities in such a situation. Each club should have a certain number of PL riders to choose from (say 6 to 8) who could cover, depending on the average of the rider missing, etc. Of course, squads would be even better, than we could eliminate guests entirely. However, being realistic about this, British Speedway simply can't afford this. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 17:45:12 GMT
And it would be nice to have a sensible discussion on speedway for a change. And so would I. But let's be realistic, hatcham, facilities are like new roads. You build them to ease congestion and find that traffic expands to fill them. The M25 is a classic example. The theory was that the M25 would be used to to circumvent London and the probability of it being used to get from one part of London to another wasn't considered. But that's what happened and the result was a clogged-up M25. It's the same with facilities - you increase the supply and the demand multiplies and often multiplies to exceed supply. You end up with teams that are operating two, three, four and more facilities. The M25 is of keen interest to me and as a Londoner i have to say its a fantastic road except during the morning and evening rush hours, its problem then is that the planners failed to see how popular it would be and mistakenly did not build five lanes each way when they had the chance. But back to speedway, i'm sure your aware i am not pro guest-facilities, but IF they are to exist then surely they should be in place to cover ANY eventuality, or else what was the point of them in the first place ? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 17:49:01 GMT
But to be serious for a minute Genghis, and putting aside the farcical element of the guest facility, which i presume most of us on here dislike, what would you see as the reasoning behind its invention in the first place ? And it would be nice to have a sensible discussion on speedway for a change. Guests were brought in so a team decimated by injuries could still be competitive. And that's why I would still like to see a team with two/three heat leaders missing to use one R/R and one or two guests in such a situation. But to cover second strings / reserves, I don't see the need for guests, and up until the late 80s, there were no facilities in such a situation. Each club should have a certain number of PL riders to choose from (say 6 to 8) who could cover, depending on the average of the rider missing, etc. Of course, squads would be even better, than we could eliminate guests entirely. However, being realistic about this, British Speedway simply can't afford this. Yes, but if they are designed to make decimated sides more competitive, for the paying public, or for the team involved logically it has to cover ALL reasons. |
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Post by admin on Mar 24, 2009 17:54:15 GMT
The M25 is of keen interest to me and as a Londoner i have to say its a fantastic road except during the morning and evening rush hours, its problem then is that the planners failed to see how popular it would be and mistakenly did not build five lanes each way when they had the chance. What they failed to see was that people wanting to get from Orpington to East Ham would use the M25, they assumed the M25 would just be used by traffic with little interest in London and not those wanting to get from one part of London to another. It's the same with facilities. Speedway in this country used to survive on minimum facilities and everyone just got on with it. Now the answer to everything is a facility. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 18:01:43 GMT
The M25 is of keen interest to me and as a Londoner i have to say its a fantastic road except during the morning and evening rush hours, its problem then is that the planners failed to see how popular it would be and mistakenly did not build five lanes each way when they had the chance. What they failed to see was that people wanting to get from Orpington to East Ham would use the M25, they assumed the M25 would just be used by traffic with little interest in London and not those wanting to get from one part of London to another. It's the same with facilities. Speedway in this country used to survive on minimum facilities and everyone just got on with it. Now the answer to everything is a facility. Your preacing to the converted over this, i cant stand the guest facility because its to random and therefore unfair, i also hate the 'averages system' for the same reason, Poole effectively won the title last year because they had Holder on a snip, and Swindon are favourites this year largely due to Pavlic. But back to my point, IF the facility is to exist, for the team, committed or casual supporter, why does the reason for the absence have a bearing ? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 18:11:44 GMT
As you provided a link through google translator, I thought I would point out that Jarek does actually look after his International fans and the site has an English version  On the subject of guests, I think that IF they have to be allowed for then it DOES matter what the circumstances are. If you just open it up to allow guests for anything then riders will simply not bother flying in for a match, or will opt to stay home when their club is racing at a track they don't like. As it stands, these things do still happen and rather suspicious doctor's notes get provided, but it would certainly happen far more often if the current rules weren't in place. In saying that, I would rather see the back of ALL facilities and have a move to a squad system. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2009 18:16:16 GMT
[quote author=admin board=sgd thread=31 If you just open it up to allow guests for anything then riders will simply not bother flying in for a match, or will opt to stay home when their club is racing at a track they don't like. So who in your opinion are the guest rules in place for ? the team ? committed supporter ? or casual supporter ? |
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Post by admin on Mar 24, 2009 18:17:21 GMT
In saying that, I would rather see the back of ALL facilities and have a move to a squad system. I don't disagree, but I feel the squad systems used in Poland and Sweden are deeply misunderstood by large parts of the speedway community in this country. Generally speaking, the squad is a "back stop" and clubs have a preferred "first choice" team that they use at every opportunity. The only example of the type of system British fans seem to believe in, was when Elit Vetlanda used Jason Crump sparingly. |
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