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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 14:19:30 GMT
Another topical example is NFL which employs team equalisation techniques in the form of equal revenue sharing, salary caps and a draft system. Almost all the matches are a sell-out despite being widely shown on television, and Wembley Stadium was also full this weekend to see two foreign teams play each other. On so many levels the NFL is a poor example to quote. Yes, their matches are almost all "sold out", but how many matches are there? Each team is only guaranteed something like eighteen matches per season - that's presumably nine home and nine away. ie 'big events' in themselves thus making them less missable whereas the speedway model of 'pile it high sell it (not so) cheap' is rapidly losing its appeal And there are probably just about the same number of NFL teams as there are speedway teams in the UK, spread across a continent and not an island. The United States has upwards of 300 million inhabitants as against circa 60 million in the UK. And in spite of all this supposed "equalisation" of team strengths, a single franchise has won the superbowl in three of the last 5-6 years and is currently undefeated this season. To be sure, previously this franchise were one of the unglamourous ones, but their recent successes surely owe as much to getting things right within the franchise as the "equalisation" methods of the NFL? See Wibblemuis' post about how many teams have won (havent bothered checking his stats but hes not usually too far off the mark would just add that its even more impressive when you consider it as a proportion (some old top level football sides are now in the third tier so that should imply more winners not less) Speedway has always fallen between two stools - motorsport fans who tend to be geared towards 'individuals' and team sport fans who dont tend to appreciate motorsport and this marginality combined with Donsking's points about 4 blokes on an oval track is valid, could the sport be rekindled? possibly, but I think it is getting less and less likely when looking for any kind of lead from those at the top of the sport (I know there are a few 'forward thinking promotions' but fear it is too little too late)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 15:49:03 GMT
would just add that its even more impressive when you consider it as a proportion (some old top level football sides are now in the third tier so that should imply more winners not less) Looking at other US sports since 1967 that employ varying degrees of team equalisation. MLB - 19 different winners NHL - 15 different winners NBA - 12 different winners Also found the following average attendances for American College Football. Division I-A - 117 teams, average 46,039 (45,628 regular season) Division I-AA - 116 teams, 8,521 (7,699) Division II - 147 teams, 3,842 (3,740) Division III - 227 teams, 1,840 (1,845) So even small colleges playing each other draw better audiences than British speedway.
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Post by donsking on Oct 30, 2007 16:33:49 GMT
It's that mass appeal thing again isn't it.
Sports like football or cricket, you can go and watch a game and then recreate it with your mates down the park or in your back yard, it's much harder to do that with speedway.
It also doesn't really relate to anything else; it's been spiced up with trying different surfaces like ice and grass, but all the forms of it amount to the same thing and have nothing in common with any other kind of bike sport.
It's also in the fairly unusual position of being a bike sport that doesn't appeal to bikers, because, again, they can't relate to it.
It will always have it's hard core fanbase, simply because there isn't anything else like it, but it's also that uniqueness that alienates it from a mass audience.
Unfortunately, I think more and more view it today in the same way as people who think golf spoils a good walk and look on football as 22 blokes running around a park chasing a ball; it's a bit silly and pointless.
In my opinion, you would be better off trying to push long track to a major audience; on the Mike Lee thread, someone has posted footage of him winning the '81 final, and a long term speedway fan was impressed, in fact the same as my reaction to seeing long track for the first time.
The tracks are bigger, there are more riders on track and you're talking about proper speeds; it represents a far more interesting prospect for when things go wrong, and when you start telling people about 8 bikes, on dirt, 100+mph and no brakes.........now that sounds impressive!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 17:00:37 GMT
In my opinion, you would be better off trying to push long track to a major audience Oh good God no. Longtrack is utterly tedious to watch - all about who has the fastest engines, and passing at a premium. The tracks are also too big to see the riders very well, and would of course make the sport impractical in urban stadiums. Another problem with longtrack is that it seems to take forever to run meetings - something like 15 heats over 3-4 hours. I suppose there's no reason why that aspect couldn't be fixed, but the meetings I saw didn't compare to speedway. Now ice racing is a completely different thing, and I have no idea why that's never taken-off in any sort of manner.
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Post by admin on Oct 30, 2007 17:05:05 GMT
Now ice racing is a completely different thing, and I have no idea why that's never taken-off in any sort of manner. Well, as far as the UK is concerned, to misquote the penguins on a video on my mobile: "There's no fucking ice."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 17:24:06 GMT
In my opinion, you would be better off trying to push long track to a major audience Oh good God no. Longtrack is utterly tedious to watch - all about who has the fastest engines, and passing at a premium. The tracks are also too big to see the riders very well, and would of course make the sport impractical in urban stadiums. Another problem with longtrack is that it seems to take forever to run meetings - something like 15 heats over 3-4 hours. I suppose there's no reason why that aspect couldn't be fixed, but the meetings I saw didn't compare to speedway. Now ice racing is a completely different thing, and I have no idea why that's never taken-off in any sort of manner. Got to agree on both points.Can't claim to be an expert on longtrack.Only been to 3 meetings.But like you say, utterly boring.Obviously track prep might be one point that causes it to take so long.I mean a tractor going round a 1,000m track 10 times takes a lot longer than going round a 300m track 10 times.But someone was comparing the recent GP to a longtrack meeting.At Gelsenkirchen the riders for the next heat were there ready and waiting.Whereas the poster was saying,at a longtrack meeting the riders only start getting ready for their heat once the last heat is finished and the riders are back in the pits. Ice racing is a completely different kettle of fish.It is an amazing spectacle,especially under floodlights.Plenty of action and a really great atmosphere.
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Post by admin on Oct 30, 2007 19:15:05 GMT
I don't know much about ice racing, but maybe it never took off because there isn't a team component to it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 19:33:56 GMT
I don't know much about ice racing, but maybe it never took off because there isn't a team component to it? Well there are two leagues.One in Russia and one in Sweden.Although the Russian teams,as well as the Team World Championship is more of a pairs thing.2 riders and a reserve.Sweden has a proper team set-up.Plus they have the occasional Ice test match in Sweden.The other countries just don't have the strength in depth to have test matches against Russia.And that is why the World Ice Team Championship is also based on 3 riders.Russia win anyway.But if it was teams of 5,5 or 7 then the others would be thrashed
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Post by donsking on Oct 30, 2007 20:33:59 GMT
To be honest, I only mentioned longtrack in an effort to be a bit positive, I think on paper it looks like an easier product to sell, one that would appeal more to today's speed freak public, but I also accept that it's not a very practical alternative in the UK.
The fact of the matter is, unless someone comes up with something seriously radical, I'm still of the opinion that speedway in this country has a very short future, surely there can only be a finite number of nutters who want to come into the sport and throw money at it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 22:14:48 GMT
To be honest, I only mentioned longtrack in an effort to be a bit positive, I think on paper it looks like an easier product to sell, one that would appeal more to today's speed freak public, but I also accept that it's not a very practical alternative in the UK. The fact of the matter is, unless someone comes up with something seriously radical, I'm still of the opinion that speedway in this country has a very short future, surely there can only be a finite number of nutters who want to come into the sport and throw money at it? Sad but true, post #57 sounds good although I guess the smilie implies the idea has not gained univeral approval (BTW totally agree with the good walk spoiled view of golf but strangely find myself caring about the Ryder Cup every time it comes round)
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Post by donsking on Oct 30, 2007 23:09:44 GMT
I know what you're saying about post #57, and I know it's a theory that you hold dear, but does the technology currently exist to make it work?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 23:30:13 GMT
I know what you're saying about post #57, and I know it's a theory that you hold dear, but does the technology currently exist to make it work? Short answer is yes, slightly longer answer is yes at a cost (although not as much as you might think), I cant link to anything directly in the same way that its almost impossible to link to anything on the web showing absolute specs for traditional engined bikes but if the will was there the technology and expertise certainly exists in the UK
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Post by donsking on Oct 30, 2007 23:49:04 GMT
I know what you're saying about post #57, and I know it's a theory that you hold dear, but does the technology currently exist to make it work? Short answer is yes, slightly longer answer is yes at a cost (although not as much as you might think), I cant link to anything directly in the same way that its almost impossible to link to anything on the web showing absolute specs for traditional engined bikes but if the will was there the technology and expertise certainly exists in the UK I did listen with interest to your theory on electric bikes, and it does have a lot of merit, so I'm not going to diss it in any way, but.......... Electric motors are a very efficient form of power unit, but they do struggle to produce the kind of power and torque characteristics needed to reproduce the kind of performance a modern speedway bike needs. The bigger problem though could be the battery needed to provide the electricity. The currently most popular hybrid car that's so beloved of the tree huggers is the Toyota Prius; that has a battery that lasts about an hour (assuming you never go above 30 mph and use battery power only) costs around £3000 (just for the battery, no labour charge for changing included) and takes about 6 hours to recharge. It provides relatively brisk acceleration for a heavy thing like a car, but it's nowhere near to giving the kind of instant power delivery needed for a speedway bike.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2007 0:19:33 GMT
Short answer is yes, slightly longer answer is yes at a cost (although not as much as you might think), I cant link to anything directly in the same way that its almost impossible to link to anything on the web showing absolute specs for traditional engined bikes but if the will was there the technology and expertise certainly exists in the UK I did listen with interest to your theory on electric bikes, and it does have a lot of merit, so I'm not going to diss it in any way, but.......... Electric motors are a very efficient form of power unit, but they do struggle to produce the kind of power and torque characteristics needed to reproduce the kind of performance a modern speedway bike needs. The bigger problem though could be the battery needed to provide the electricity. The currently most popular hybrid car that's so beloved of the tree huggers is the Toyota Prius; that has a battery that lasts about an hour (assuming you never go above 30 mph and use battery power only) costs around £3000 (just for the battery, no labour charge for changing included) and takes about 6 hours to recharge. It provides relatively brisk acceleration for a heavy thing like a car, but it's nowhere near to giving the kind of instant power delivery needed for a speedway bike. OK, its past my bedtime but I cant leave it like this overnight... Speedway is the ideal motorsport to go electric precisely because of the battery requirement (races tend to be sort and sharp compared to MotoGP or similar). There are plenty of different battery vehicles out there and most tend to try and compromise speed with range (hence your Prius example), speedway has no such hang ups - empty the battery in 60sec or so to get maximum power and replace for the next heat (OK not the cheapest option but this is motorsport) As a quick demonstration of what can be achieved www.killacycle.com not my cup of tea but each to their own BTW feel free to 'diss' (how old are you anything posted on here - thats why we are members of WWoS, freedom to speak our minds (and those of us still members all grown up enough to take it)
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Post by donsking on Oct 31, 2007 0:31:07 GMT
Like you, it's way past my bedtime, so I'll assimilate all that information later and give you measured response, if that's OK?
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