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Post by admin on Jul 2, 2007 15:08:37 GMT
I'd have been more impressed if the real great Kiwi Bruce Cribb had called you. Belle Vue always had a cadre of riders from around Manchester - they were the heart and soul of the club, but foreign riders were still around in PC's day and before PC. Larry Ross springs readily to mind. I'm not sure it really matters where they come from orginally, although I suspect we'd all like to see one or two more British riders around. What really matters is the continuity at a club and that just doesn't exist anymore. PC had how many years with the Aces? Lucky if a guy spends over 5 years with a club now. The suggestion of an average reduction for continuity is a good one and should be adopted.
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Post by jimblanchard on Jul 2, 2007 15:17:11 GMT
I know, I know but maybe BC is not aware of my talents with a brush and a few water colours and he also wants a few paintings and with respect to him he cannot come on the phone and say. "Hi its Ivan Mauger here". ;D
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Post by admin on Jul 2, 2007 18:14:02 GMT
he cannot come on the phone and say "Hi its Ivan Mauger here" Well, he could, but it would be a bit of a fib.
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Post by jimblanchard on Jul 2, 2007 18:28:13 GMT
he cannot come on the phone and say "Hi its Ivan Mauger here" Well, he could, but it would be a bit of a fib. Yes true Sube, but I would also recognise his voice so there would be little point in that really. Sorry, if you felt that I was worth taking the piss out of but in my own way I feel proud and honored that what we all regard as gods in this sport of ours do call me up from time to time. Can I not brag a wee bit on here? I know I would be in trouble on the BSF, but I thought it was different on here. Its just a little bit of me I guess. I make sure it will not happen again.
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Post by admin on Jul 2, 2007 18:48:11 GMT
Wasn't an attempt to take the piss out of you, more an ill-judged attempt to inject a little humour.
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Post by donsking on Jul 2, 2007 23:22:18 GMT
So, here I am, fresh back from Arlington to see our new 'team'.
Wonderkid Jonsson, apparently still suffering the effects of his spill at Cardiff, fences himself on turn 3 of the first heat and takes no further part in the proceedings; can we use rider replacement for our crocked #1, or maybe draft in Chris Mills, our named substitute?
No, instead our brand new and rather untried reserves have to carry the can, immediately hamstringing the rest of the team, Kling inconsistently scoring and Tomicek not scoring a single point all night.
During a rather lacklustre meeting, I saw several instances where a Lakeside rider in second place (with no chance of getting first) just kept it wound on and went for as many points (read 'money') as he could get, instead of trying to take the race back to his team mate who was being hung out to dry in fourth.
I'm told that, when interviewed on SKY, Joonas Kylmakorpi had no idea what the score was.
We were constantly reminded that Lewis Bridger was making a return after several weeks on various other duties unconnected with his club.
Pedersen of course will never appear at home when there's a GP on, because the budgies ride on a Saturday.
Does any of the above indicate that speedway is a team sport, or that it is in any way encouraged to be?
I also took a friend, a first time speedway watcher; having explained (as well as I could) the guest/rider replacement/#8/facility rules, her immediate reaction was "So, in theory, it would be possible to go every week and never see the same team?", which, for me, pretty much sums it all up.
As an amusing aside, I also had cause to explain the Tac Ride rule; "Sounds like playing the Joker in It's A Knockout" she said, "Will we all have to throw balloons filled with water at him as he goes round?" ;D
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Post by schumi on Jul 3, 2007 6:57:20 GMT
Wonderkid Jonsson, apparently still suffering the effects of his spill at Cardiff, fences himself on turn 3 of the first heat and takes no further part in the proceedings; can we use rider replacement for our crocked #1, or maybe draft in Chris Mills, our named substitute? No, instead our brand new and rather untried reserves have to carry the can, immediately hamstringing the rest of the team, Kling inconsistently scoring and Tomicek not scoring a single point all night. During a rather lacklustre meeting, I saw several instances where a Lakeside rider in second place (with no chance of getting first) just kept it wound on and went for as many points (read 'money') as he could get, instead of trying to take the race back to his team mate who was being hung out to dry in fourth. Okay, I'll try and answer these as best I can, but you were there and I only saw a few heats on Sky, so you'd know better than me. You will be granted a facility for Andreas should he be unfit to ride tomorrow. He rode last night knowing he wasn't up to the job, but to get that meeting out of the way specifically so you would get a facility for him, so it seems he has the team's best interests at heart. I have a lot of time for your current reserves, having followed them during their time at Oxford. Lubos will always give you everything he's got. Don't be too disheartened with his performance last night - you can bet it will spur him on to do better for you at the next meeting. Don't forget he hasn't been back here long, and has had a bit of an upheaval by all accounts, coming over mid season then being dropped after Oxford closed. Give him a couple of meetings to settle then see how he's going. I was in particular looking at Ricky (mainly to prove maccattack wrong, but that's another matter. ;D) I didn't see his first two heats, but I think he scored 1',0. His third heat he won. Okay, so the next couple he didn't score well, but he did mainly make the gate and in his fourth heat I was impressed by the way he was looking for his team mate whilst trying to hang on to the bike coming out of the second bend. Again, he's not had a settled start to the season, but he scored a few points and I'm certain he'll do better when he gets a couple of meetings under his belt. Possibly the fact he had the cameras on him made a difference too. With both the reserves the motivation is there, and I'd say that's as much a part of team work than anything else. Agree the meeting itself was pretty boring, but you've come out of it with the bonus, and, although I know the Hammers fans are disappointed to have lost, you have to remember the team are new together. I understand you've been promised good things and were hoping to see much more last night, but give them all a chance to get to know each other and get over those first few meetings and then re-assess.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2007 12:40:45 GMT
Wonderkid Jonsson, apparently still suffering the effects of his spill at Cardiff, fences himself on turn 3 of the first heat and takes no further part in the proceedings; can we use rider replacement for our crocked #1, or maybe draft in Chris Mills, our named substitute? No, instead our brand new and rather untried reserves have to carry the can, immediately hamstringing the rest of the team, Kling inconsistently scoring and Tomicek not scoring a single point all night. All valid points and totally undefensable in terms of a 'team' sport - Mills was riding for Lynn at Glasgow btw. Much could be improved in this respect by changes to the structure of the teams with greater use of doubling up / expansion of the no8 rules to say reserves are (say) 2 from 5 or 6 PL riders (even better if a major / minor league system was implemented to encourage the development of these 'squad' riders) I would also permit any rider in the team having an extra ride at the expense of a higher averaged team member subject to the normal minimum 3 rides per rider (in this case I guess anyone could then have ridden in place of Jonsson in his three remaining rides). This would also allow for 'in form' riders getting extra rides and riders who hate a particular track (which we see plenty of at Lynn) being replaced by a better performing team mate. As an aside I think this may also help in building more balanced sides to take advantage of the 'substitute' rule During a rather lacklustre meeting, I saw several instances where a Lakeside rider in second place (with no chance of getting first) just kept it wound on and went for as many points (read 'money') as he could get, instead of trying to take the race back to his team mate who was being hung out to dry in fourth. I'm told that, when interviewed on SKY, Joonas Kylmakorpi had no idea what the score was. We were constantly reminded that Lewis Bridger was making a return after several weeks on various other duties unconnected with his club. Pedersen of course will never appear at home when there's a GP on, because the budgies ride on a Saturday. Does any of the above indicate that speedway is a team sport, or that it is in any way encouraged to be? I think that is the point, the governing body dont seem to want to 'encourage' team speedway and thus we get this halfway house that wants to promote a club based league whilst doing absolutely nothing to foster a team environment. Just because the BSPA cant organise their way out of a paper bag does not make the concept of team speedway irrelevant I also took a friend, a first time speedway watcher; having explained (as well as I could) the guest/rider replacement/#8/facility rules, her immediate reaction was "So, in theory, it would be possible to go every week and never see the same team?", which, for me, pretty much sums it all up. Not dissimilar to many team sports with a squad system (particularly top flight football), difference with speedway is we dont currently have squads therefore the changes tend to be 'outsiders' when if a thought through squad system was introduced you could in effect be replacing from within
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Post by admin on Jul 3, 2007 12:53:19 GMT
When I look at speedway in Poland, I see a structure that has some semblence of reason to it. No guests and only the occasional use of rider replacement; just the way it used to be in the National League that I knew and loved. Now, don't tell me a squad system negates the need for guests. That's a bankrupt argument. Do people who forward this argument really think that Rzeszow's squad contains a rider of similar stature to Nicki P to cover when the world championship leader is missing? Or that Wroclaw's have squad riders who can easily fill a hole made by a missing Crump or Andersen?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2007 12:58:47 GMT
Trouble with the squad system is though - paying riders who aren't actually racing all the time . Football can get away with players sitting in the stand earning big money - speedway cannot . Cant see it ever happening over here .
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Post by admin on Jul 3, 2007 13:05:10 GMT
Doesn't need to happen over here. I remember in the days of the old National League you had to have all three heat leaders absent before you could think about a guest. I believe edinburgh (boo hiss) used a guest in 1984. If you were just missing a single heat leader you got rider replacement and if it were just a second string or reserve, tough - you had to make do and mend. Didn't John Berry manage to keep producing good results at British League Ipswich on a policy of not using guests?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2007 13:41:47 GMT
Trouble with the squad system is though - paying riders who aren't actually racing all the time . Football can get away with players sitting in the stand earning big money - speedway cannot . Cant see it ever happening over here . Whilst not perfect there could easily be a 'squad' system for the lower order of EL sides made up of the upper end riders of PL teams. Riders would be paid by their PL club and if they were in form / available they would be able to ride for their EL side thus earning extra money, EL teams would in effect only pay for riders on a pay per ride basis plus something to the PL side for the services of their rider (hopefully over time this would develop into longer term 'training' fees to build closer ties between clubs in much the way Poole and IOW seem to operate). Winners and losers: PL The PL would benefit in that an additional pool of riders would be available at the upper end of the points scale (and may accept a bit less money per meeting as they would have the possibility of earning EL 'top up' money), on the down side some of their riders may get injured riding for their EL club EL The EL would benefit by only having to contract (say) their top 4 (I would look at making this a squad as well but thats one for another day) plus nominating a pool of PL riders they would select their lower order from on a match by match basis. The standard of 'doubling up' riders would rise allowing the top PL boys to replace some of the 'filler' riders that currently make up some EL lower orders. Fans would have a more certain look to their teams over the course of a season as any changes would be from a predetermined pool of riders Riders Affected riders (bottom end EL) may benefit from a more stable income stream at PL heat leaders (how many riders cant make the top league pay the bills when they first move up?) whilst still being able to ride EL if they are in form, this would make the step up to 'full time' EL a far more progressive process and some may find their level as permanent PL heat leader / EL squad rider
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2007 18:00:24 GMT
Didn't John Berry manage to keep producing good results at British League Ipswich on a policy of not using guests? To a large extent, I think injuries are so prevalent in speedway that things would tend to balance out for most teams over the course of the season. There perhaps needs to be some provision for teams that lose their No.1 or perhaps two or three heat-leaders, but guests are grossly overused for lower-order riders. For a start, I think I would insist on every team having 2-4 junior riders (U21 or in first three years of career) that could be used as stop-gap replacements for reserves and emergencies. These would primarily ride in second-half events, but could in principle double-up for BCL or even BPL teams. I'd also allow lower-league guests for the second-strings and possibly reserves, but allow the averages of absent riders to be combined and guests selected up to that limit. In other words, if you have missing 9- and 3-point riders, you could use two 6-point guests. For the heat leaders, I think I have some sort of handicapping system that compensated the team for their absence. On the wider point, speedway is for me a team sport. I have very little interest in individual racing, and only then when following riders from my own team. If the SGP breaks the link with team racing, it might as well be another sport as far as I'm concerned. Teams are also important for continuity. Individual riders always come and go, but teams are (usually) constant from year-to-year.
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Post by admin on Jul 5, 2007 22:38:44 GMT
I'd like to see us follow the Polish example and have the "reserve" places filled by juniors - that's to say riders under the age of 21. I notice that Swindon currently have Charlie Gjedde at reserve, while last month they had a former GP rider in Tomasz Chrzanowski. If that means we have to leave these riders at "reserve" even with higher averages than riders in the main body of the team, so be it. Maybe start with just one of the reserve berths being a "junior" next season and progress it to two a year or so later. This might, just might, encourage promoters to invest in young British riders.
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Post by donsking on Jul 5, 2007 23:08:33 GMT
I think we need to do something about encouraging the youngsters, surely there must be more than Bridger and Kennett out there?
It seems to me that it's too easy to look abroad for the next 'coming men', rather than see the PL as the feeder league to the EL.
But, at the same time, we need to get ourselves in a position where it's possible to see the same team from one season to the next, and, more to the point, from one week to the next; injuries you can't odds against, but riders not turning up because it's a GP or they're racing for some other league or country is not the way to promote a team sport.
I've been actively following speedway again since last August, and I've now seen three almost totally different teams in six months worth of racing at Lakeside; if I wanted to see 7 random guys racing speedway because I like the colour of their kevlars, that would be fine, but, silly me, I like to see some consistancy and cohesion, and that's what's really missing.
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