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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 22:06:10 GMT
The highest attendance figure for Cardiff that I've ever seen is circa 45,000. I thought I'd seen it quoted at 60K this year, but no matter, that's still substantially more than get off their arses each week and watch it. Obviously there will be a large foreign contingent, but that could still mean you've the entire weekly speedway attendance turning up for one meeting.
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Post by admin on Oct 29, 2007 22:10:02 GMT
But, as I said, albeit in an edit, Cardiff is as much a social event as a sporting event - how many people turn up to the first day of a Lords test compared to the attendances at county matches?
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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 22:17:18 GMT
You've got me there, I wouldn't have a clue, largely because I'd rather pull the fluff from my navel than watch a cricket match, however, the other point interests me.
I think that's where speedway is at now; it's a social gathering, rather than a properly attended sport.
Unfortunately, as a society, we don't really do social gatherings anymore, our culture is one of keeping yourself to yourself.
If you add that to speedway's less than 21st century attitude to it's supporters, that could be an insurmountable problem.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 22:48:39 GMT
The problem as I see it is the sport is the only team motorsport, but as soon as supporters start to become partisan then a whole load of bleaters startup.
The ever present cheering the fallen opponent routine, (I'm not saying its right) the vocal and visual abuse of a winning opponent. Gets someone on the BSF all hurt and wounded.
The fans may give some fiendly banter, but at the end of the meeting they have a pint.
Much the same as cricket or rugby, fringe sports with a smaller following that the great footy god.
Most of the riders have little or no team aleigence, the obvious ones that do are slammed for not having the bottle to step up to the next league. Why should they, if they are making a good living in the PL then why step up and struggle, perhaps the doubling up rule should be expanded to mid or even late twenties, for Brits. Brits under 21's can stay at reserve for the whole season or until replaced by another under 21.
Make people want to attend the sport.
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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 23:05:41 GMT
The problem as I see it is the sport is the only team motorsport, but as soon as supporters start to become partisan then a whole load of bleaters startup. The ever present cheering the fallen opponent routine, (I'm not saying its right) the vocal and visual abuse of a winning opponent. Gets someone on the BSF all hurt and wounded. The fans may give some fiendly banter, but at the end of the meeting they have a pint. Much the same as cricket or rugby, fringe sports with a smaller following that the great footy god. Most of the riders have little or no team aleigence, the obvious ones that do are slammed for not having the bottle to step up to the next league. Why should they, if they are making a good living in the PL then why step up and struggle, perhaps the doubling up rule should be expanded to mid or even late twenties, for Brits. Brits under 21's can stay at reserve for the whole season or until replaced by another under 21. Make people want to attend the sport. It's not the only team motorsport, but it's the only one I can think of where the individual championship has no relationship to the team one. It's also the only team motorsport that actively penalises the teams for being too successfull. And the only team motorsport that actively encourages the individuals to only think of themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 23:07:19 GMT
a sport born of Victorian values that's trying to compete in the 21st century. Whilst I'd agree speedway does still have that aura of 'those magnificent men in their flying machines' about it, surely all the popular British sports today were born of Victorian values? People still go to watch sport today, despite the prevalence of television, and I'm sure if speedway were marketed right, it would still succeed. After all, people still watch F1 and that's total rubbish. Could it be that individual speedway is a more appealing product in today's market? I don't think so. I think Cardiff succeeds because it's a social occasion, but if you held several Cardiffs I think you'd see diminished attendances. After all, why do Poland and Sweden have two GPs, but Britain only one? For all the hype about the SGP, it hasn't really succeeded in improving attendances above the levels of the early-to-mid nineties, and it's still held in much the same old places. If you look at sport overall, nearly all those with the best audiences are team sports. The only individual sports that pull decent crowds are tennis, F1 and MotoGP, and the latter two have a team element as well. I don't think team speedway succeeds because it's mostly poor entertainment and poor value for money these days. If somehow one or both of these factors could be improved, maybe it could again be a successful sport.
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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 23:18:24 GMT
a sport born of Victorian values that's trying to compete in the 21st century. Whilst I'd agree speedway does still have that aura of 'those magnificent men in their flying machines' about it, surely all the popular British sports today were born of Victorian values? People still go to watch sport today, despite the prevalence of television, and I'm sure if speedway were marketed right, it would still succeed. After all, people still watch F1 and that's total rubbish. Speedway's problem today is that it just doesn't really appeal to a mass market, the basic premise of four blokes riding around a dirt oval just doesn't hack it. I'm trying to look at it totally dispassionately, and if you tried to introduce four guys on bikes going round a dirt track in the middle of nowhere, at 60mph today, I don't think you'd get very far at all. Even good old Motocross has had to totally reinvent itself and become something far removed from the sport that took TV viewers by storm in the late 60s/early 70s.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 23:18:57 GMT
It's also the only team motorsport that actively penalises the teams for being too successfull. Though some might say F1 would be a hell of a lot more interesting if there was a degree of team equalisation. Another topical example is NFL which employs team equalisation techniques in the form of equal revenue sharing, salary caps and a draft system. Almost all the matches are a sell-out despite being widely shown on television, and Wembley Stadium was also full this weekend to see two foreign teams play each other. To be honest, you can find evidence to back arguments either way as to whether team equalisation is good for a sport or not, but the most profitable sports all employ it to some degree. The one real exception is football which currently relies on the egomania of the noveau-riche who have more money than sense, but it's heading for impending disaster.
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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 23:26:50 GMT
It's also the only team motorsport that actively penalises the teams for being too successfull. Though some might say F1 would be a hell of a lot more interesting if there was a degree of team equalisation. Another topical example is NFL which employs team equalisation techniques in the form of equal revenue sharing, salary caps and a draft system. Almost all the matches are a sell-out despite being widely shown on television, and Wembley Stadium was also full this weekend to see two foreign teams play each other. To be honest, you can find evidence to back arguments either way as to whether team equalisation is good for a sport or not, but the most profitable sports all employ it to some degree. The one real exception is football which currently relies on the egomania of the noveau-riche who have more money than sense, but it's heading for impending disaster. But, using the Cardiff argument, would Wembley sell out if it was on every week? Actually, we already know the answer because they tried a properly organised gridiron league over here, and it died a pretty quick death. Revenue sharing I like, and that might happen in speedway if one bloke wasn't more equal than everyone else. I also like wage capping, but that won't work unless all the leagues do it. Similarly, we can't operate a draft system, because if we only included British riders, there wouldn't be enough to go round.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 23:28:49 GMT
I'm trying to look at it totally dispassionately, and if you tried to introduce four guys on bikes going round a dirt track in the middle of nowhere, at 60mph today, I don't think you'd get very far at all. I did the same thing, and thought about whether one could capitalise on the Lewis Hamilton craze. Dig-up the speedway tracks, build a kart circuit, and then hold several races between teams using karts instead of bikes. The tarmac track would mean no dirt or rainoffs, and unlike F1 you could see the whole race. Alternatively, what about using fuel-cell driven electric bikes and pretending it's a completely new sport?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2007 23:31:19 GMT
Similarly, we can't operate a draft system, because if we only included British riders, there wouldn't be enough to go round. Sure, but what you could do is only allow teams to protect (say) five or their seven riders each season. The remaining two riders, plus any new riders could go into the draft system, which would ensure some migration of better riders to worse teams.
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Post by donsking on Oct 29, 2007 23:37:27 GMT
Similarly, we can't operate a draft system, because if we only included British riders, there wouldn't be enough to go round. Sure, but what you could do is only allow teams to protect (say) five or their seven riders each season. The remaining two riders, plus any new riders could go into the draft system, which would ensure some migration of better riders to worse teams. The only way I can see that working is if the teams have to pick which riders they're going to keep before the season starts, that would create a lottery where an improving rider could hawk himself around at season's end.
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Post by admin on Oct 30, 2007 11:55:53 GMT
It's also the only team motorsport that actively penalises the teams for being too successfull. And the only team motorsport that actively encourages the individuals to only think of themselves. Oh I don't know about those last two, especially if we regard Formula 1 as a team motorsport. McLaren were actively penalised for being too successful this last season by the FIA. But of course, the problem there was that only Ferrari are allowed to be successful in Formula 1. And McLaren were actively encouraged to have their individual riders think of themselves, although again Ferrari were allowed to behave as a team to gift the championship to Raikkonen.
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Post by admin on Oct 30, 2007 12:04:48 GMT
Another topical example is NFL which employs team equalisation techniques in the form of equal revenue sharing, salary caps and a draft system. Almost all the matches are a sell-out despite being widely shown on television, and Wembley Stadium was also full this weekend to see two foreign teams play each other. On so many levels the NFL is a poor example to quote. Yes, their matches are almost all "sold out", but how many matches are there? Each team is only guaranteed something like eighteen matches per season - that's presumably nine home and nine away. And there are probably just about the same number of NFL teams as there are speedway teams in the UK, spread across a continent and not an island. The United States has upwards of 300 million inhabitants as against circa 60 million in the UK. And in spite of all this supposed "equalisation" of team strengths, a single franchise has won the superbowl in three of the last 5-6 years and is currently undefeated this season. To be sure, previously this franchise were one of the unglamourous ones, but their recent successes surely owe as much to getting things right within the franchise as the "equalisation" methods of the NFL?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 13:48:07 GMT
Yes, their matches are almost all "sold out", but how many matches are there? That's indeed a point, but the NHL and NBA stage lots of games throughout the season (something like 80 each), and they generally draw decent crowds. And there are probably just about the same number of NFL teams as there are speedway teams in the UK Yes, if you only look at the NFL, but college football is also hugely popular (actually drawing better crowds in some cases) and there are 132 top-flight teams, not to mention many more playing at lower levels. And in spite of all this supposed "equalisation" of team strengths, a single franchise has won the superbowl in three of the last 5-6 years and is currently undefeated this season. 17 teams have won the Super Bowl since it started in 1967 (predating the current NFL). In the same period, only 11 different teams have won the English Premiership/Division 1 (in fact there have only been 23 different winners in 119 seasons). In Scotland, just 4 different teams have won.
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