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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 12:03:03 GMT
Maybe I should make it my life's goal to insist that Hans Neilsen lifted coming out of bend four and speared Tommy Knudsen in 1986 instead. After all, surely nobody could possibly dispute that one on watching the video. Grachan - from one angle, it certainly looks like Hans's fault. However, from a more revealing angle, Knudsen cuts back across the track in a desperate attempt to lean on Hans and stop him coming through. Too little, too late, and Nielsen was definitely in front by the point of contact. It was a World Final and it's tough - Nielsen found that out the previous year when on the outside of Knudsen. I think you've been watching the wrong video. The one where Hans is at fault is the 1993 World Final incident with Sam Ermolenko.  |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 12:13:28 GMT
Grachan, back to Penhall v Carter and even if there was a contact (which I still have yet to see), why should Penhall have been excluded for it? There were several other collisions between the two riders prior to that and neither fell. I suggest both were bad as one another, racing each other instead of the racetrack (hence PC leading by a mile) and whoever fell, it was tough luck on them.
Had Carter not aimed for Penhall on the first turn of lap 3, and hence taken himself off the racing line, he wouldn't have been vunerable to Penhall's subsequent attack down the inside. He'd lost his head and that's what reallt cost him the World Championship that year.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 14:29:56 GMT
I'm surprised you mention the Communist system as a "constraint", surely the reason the Poles and Russians did so well for a while was the fact their machinery was state-funded by the communists. Of course, by the 1980s, this was all falling to pieces and could explain the lull in Polish Speedway during this time. The fact remains that four-times Continental Champion is quite a feather in Muller's bow, which was my original point. Sorry to drag the chat back to this one...it had moved nicely on to Carter and Penhall while I was away. (by the way, I agree with genghis on this one. Carter had himself to blame for the crash.) I suspect Subedei brought up the communist system because it is incredibly relevant to the argument that you had put forward. By the late 70's and the 80's the Communist countries were in a complete financial mess. The funding that had previously been there just wasn't available. Machinery had moved on to another level with "western" Weslakes, Goddens and then GMs dominating, and the guys from the Eastern block were left behind mechanically. Muller wasn't. He had access to all the top equipment he wanted. He and his fellow "western" Continentals were given a huge advantage in this department. I don't think that the tracks that the World Finals were held on in later years were the problem, it was the equipment available to the guys from the East. Muller got a much easier ride in the later Continental Finals than he would have done 10 or 15 years earlier. For the record, I think his achievement in the 1976 Continental Final was by far his most impressive in those events, but then again, he was probably a much better speedway rider back then than he was by the time he took the title in 1983. You again commented on my "blinkered approach" to riders that didn't race regularly in Britain. I don't think I do have such an approach, I just rate these two riders differently than you obviously do. We could quite easily have the same debate about two riders who only raced in the UK, or two that never raced here. You're continual assertion that my view differs because I don't know about riders abroad is both patronising and insulting. Could it actually be that you have something against Havelock, or maybe you have seen too much of him since 1996 to give an objective view of his abilities in the early 90's. |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 14:38:13 GMT
Subedei - it's a tricky one, simply because East European doesn't quite equal Continental, i.e. the Germans, Dutch, etc also competed in this half of the World Championship draw. I'm surprised you mention the Communist system as a "constraint", surely the reason the Poles and Russians did so well for a while was the fact their machinery was state-funded by the communists. Ah, those speedway powerhouses Germany and the Netherlands. Have you ever looked at a map of Europe, young fellow? Germany shares a common border with Denmark, but the powerful Danes were tucked away into the Intercontinental section of the draw, while the hapless West Germans were in the Continental draw. Lada and Skoda cars were state-funded by the communists, but it didn't make them superior to Western marques like BMW, Mercedes, Saab, Volvo and VW, did it? Hell, they weren't even as good as cars made by Western communists such as British Leyland, Citreon, Renault and Peugeot. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 16:11:05 GMT
There was a long delay Sub, I honestly don't believe Havvy would have taken his 2nd or 3rd rides had the meeting not been held up by the tropical like downpour. Tropical?  More like Arctic.....I remember it well, it was a baking hot day and this solitary cloud came over the stadium and must literally have burst......the rain was the coldest I've ever known. And what an outstanding achievement by the organisers and track staff that day in getting the meeting finished, as I doubt many other tracks could have survived that deluge.....hats off to them!! Tropical in the way it belted down Kev, only normally see rain like that in the tropics. Didn't feel the cold for some reason, maybe it was due to my first taste of Polish pivo. Apparently I quite liked it. ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 16:12:50 GMT
If that's your criteria, then it's actually courtesy of Andrzej Wyglenda that Jerzy is better than Gary... Wyglenda matched his partners scoring when they won, while that twat Tatum let Gary down when they should have won it I believe Szczakiel scored a paid maximum in the 1971 World Pairs Final, whereas Havelock dropped a point in the heats and was then defeated in the run-off for first place. Had he matched Szczakiel's performance in the 1971 final, he would have been a double World Champion - just as Szczakiel was. I rate riders by the total number of World Championships won so: Szczakiel 2 Havelock 1 Havvy's won 2 world championshits too. World U21 (or European junior champ as it was) in 1987. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 16:20:39 GMT
I believe Szczakiel scored a paid maximum in the 1971 World Pairs Final, whereas Havelock dropped a point in the heats and was then defeated in the run-off for first place. Had he matched Szczakiel's performance in the 1971 final, he would have been a double World Champion - just as Szczakiel was. I rate riders by the total number of World Championships won so: Szczakiel 2 Havelock 1 Havvy's won 2 world championshits too. World U21 (or European junior champ as it was) in 1987. Wacks - I've already mentioned that. It didn't have World status in 1987, so doesn't count as a World Championship win. Do try to keep up.   |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 16:22:51 GMT
Subedei - it's a tricky one, simply because East European doesn't quite equal Continental, i.e. the Germans, Dutch, etc also competed in this half of the World Championship draw. I'm surprised you mention the Communist system as a "constraint", surely the reason the Poles and Russians did so well for a while was the fact their machinery was state-funded by the communists. Ah, those speedway powerhouses Germany and the Netherlands. Have you ever looked at a map of Europe, young fellow? Germany shares a common border with Denmark, but the powerful Danes were tucked away into the Intercontinental section of the draw, while the hapless West Germans were in the Continental draw. Lada and Skoda cars were state-funded by the communists, but it didn't make them superior to Western marques like BMW, Mercedes, Saab, Volvo and VW, did it? Hell, they weren't even as good as cars made by Western communists such as British Leyland, Citreon, Renault and Peugeot. What the fuck has Citreon and Peugeot got to do with it - since when have they made speedway bikes? |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 16:28:57 GMT
What the fuck has Citreon and Peugeot got to do with it - since when have they made speedway bikes? A typical response from genghis when he knows that winning the argument is slipping from his grasp. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 16:35:05 GMT
What the fuck has Citreon and Peugeot got to do with it - since when have they made speedway bikes? A typical response from genghis when he knows that winning the argument is slipping from his grasp. I've already won the argument. I'm just wonder what Citreon and Peugeot have to do with speedway. The fact that you failed to provide an answer shows that you know you have lost the argument. Anyway, I'm not sure how we've ended up on seperate sides of the argument when we both rate Egon Muller.  |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 16:42:02 GMT
We were discussing the relative strengths of riders and their racing equipment. You stated that since the Eastern bloc countries were effectively state-sponsored their equipment was equal to, or superior to, the equipment from the commercially driven Western riders. But if that were the case Lada and Skoda cars would've been the match of Western marques, even those Western marques built by communists, such as British Leyland, Renault, Citreon and Peugeot, but they weren't.
The communist system held back the riders from the Eastern bloc.
And you have no chance of ever winning an argument against me, so you might as well just give up. Remember you tried to beat me in an argument over the global superstar, but now you've fallen neatly into line.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 16:44:28 GMT
Havvy's won 2 world championshits too. World U21 (or European junior champ as it was) in 1987. Wacks - I've already mentioned that. It didn't have World status in 1987, so doesn't count as a World Championship win. Do try to keep up. You did Genghis? Sorry, must have missed that. Must remeber to take more notice of your posts. It may not have had "World" status was was an FIM meeting and did in 1987 and in previous years contain riders from the States & Oz in it. A Yank won it in 1979 ffs. For all but in name it was the World U21 Championship. |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 16:53:22 GMT
A Yank won it in 1979 ffs. For all but in name it was the World U21 Championship. And another won it in 1981 - Shawn Moran, who started out in Britain using the name David East and is now reported, sadly, to be a hopeless drunk in his native United States. |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 17:24:28 GMT
I think you've been watching the wrong video. The one where Hans is at fault is the 1993 World Final incident with Sam Ermolenko. And here are the very controversial incidents surrounding Ht 13 in Pocking back in 1993: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xPgUNdYIzvYI actually have more sympathy with Nielsen over the 1993 incident than the 1986 incident and Ermolenko getting back into the re-run after the second running was called to a halt is a nonsense. But this is the one Nielsen incident where there can't be any doubt, as the "Main Dain" does his "dying swan" act in Vojens: uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjvN6lBkaMThe referee excluded him and rightly so. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 17:26:06 GMT
Wacks - I've already mentioned that. It didn't have World status in 1987, so doesn't count as a World Championship win. Do try to keep up. You did Genghis? Sorry, must have missed that. Must remeber to take more notice of your posts. It may not have had "World" status was was an FIM meeting and did in 1987 and in previous years contain riders from the States & Oz in it. A Yank won it in 1979 ffs. For all but in name it was the World U21 Championship. Wacks, but the FIM Champion Of Champions was also a FIM event, there was an International Best Pairs in 1968, so where do you draw the line? I draw it on whether it is a "World Championship" or not. It's my way of measuring the relative merits of riders, other people may have other methods, that's up to them, but this is mine. |
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