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Post by Genghis on Dec 30, 2008 21:59:30 GMT
But out of the riders to have won the World title, he's the least accomplished. Both Szczakiel (twice World Champion) & Muller (four times World Champion) achieved more than he did. You're getting a bit desperate when you have to include Long Track championships. No doubt you'll be bringing cheesy nightclub crooning up next. Muller was a huge talent, but his indifference towards the discipline of proper speedway means it is hard to guage his true worth. He won his world title after a year of concentrating solely on that goal and with a seemingly jet-propelled GM engine. Mind you, Anders Michanek's sole world title also came after a year of concentrating solely on that goal. OK, I include the World Longrack, you don't. But what about Muller's four wins in the Continental Final - a semi-final of the World Championship that has included many quality riders down the years, even though it has been overlooked by many chauvinistic British fans over the years. Muller was a quality rider - and far better than Gary "one-year wonder" Havelock. |
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Post by admin on Dec 30, 2008 22:07:16 GMT
How many wins do you think Muller would've garnered from the Intercontinental Final?
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Post by Genghis on Dec 30, 2008 22:13:29 GMT
How many wins do you think Muller would've garnered from the Intercontinental Final? Subedei - had the World Semi-Finals (introduced in 1991) been in operation in the 70s and 80s, I wouldn't have been surprised to have see Muller win one or two on a bigger track - especially one held in Poland, Russia or Germany. I'm surprised, I didn't expect you to not rate a rider simply because of limited British League experience. Muller was a quality act and certainly not the worst rider to win an individual World title by any means, and neither was Szczakiel. |
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Post by admin on Dec 30, 2008 23:07:25 GMT
As I've said before, I do rate Muller and very highly.
But the semi-finals were introduced to reflect the changed global circumstances after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Had the Berlin Wall fallen twenty years earlier, who can say how much better the likes of Szczakiel, Plech and Jancarz from Poland might've been? The 1970s was when the financial muscle of the Western riders, with Ivan Mauger leading the way to more professionalism, saw the Eastern Europeans out-paced on track.
And if the one-off world final that you're now so fond of (although I suspect that when Gundersen was trouncing Nielsen in the world finals of 1984 and 1985 you - like your hero Nielsen - dreamed of a just world championship decided by a Grands Prix series) had been around until the present day, how many world crowns would Tomasz Gollob be boasting? With event rotation and the increasing muscle of the Poles post-1989, Poland would've had its fair share of world finals and surely at least one of those would've went to the great man from Bydgoszcz. And probably two or three.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2008 23:09:50 GMT
But what about Muller's four wins in the Continental Final - a semi-final of the World Championship that has included many quality riders down the years, even though it has been overlooked by many chauvinistic British fans over the years. Sorry, I couldn't resist biting. I just left the thread alone on the BSF when these achievements were brought up, as it seemed like it was just a piss-take! Have you looked at the quality of the riders in those meetings that Muller actually won? If you haven't, I'll remind you of just how well they did when they found themselves alongside the guys from the InterContinental Final. 1976 : 8 riders qualified, including 6 of the bottom 7 of the World Final scorechart (and the 5 lowest). 1981 : 5 riders qualified, including 4 of the bottom 5 in the World Final scorechart (and the 3 lowest). 1984 : 5 riders qualified, including the bottom 4 in the World Final scorechart. 1985 : 5 riders qualified who claimed the bottom 5 places in the World Final scorechart. Wow!!! That was some quality that was coming through that event, right enough!  |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 0:17:43 GMT
But what about Muller's four wins in the Continental Final - a semi-final of the World Championship that has included many quality riders down the years, even though it has been overlooked by many chauvinistic British fans over the years. Sorry, I couldn't resist biting. I just left the thread alone on the BSF when these achievements were brought up, as it seemed like it was just a piss-take! Have you looked at the quality of the riders in those meetings that Muller actually won? If you haven't, I'll remind you of just how well they did when they found themselves alongside the guys from the InterContinental Final. 1976 : 8 riders qualified, including 6 of the bottom 7 of the World Final scorechart (and the 5 lowest). 1981 : 5 riders qualified, including 4 of the bottom 5 in the World Final scorechart (and the 3 lowest). 1984 : 5 riders qualified, including the bottom 4 in the World Final scorechart. 1985 : 5 riders qualified who claimed the bottom 5 places in the World Final scorechart. Wow!!! That was some quality that was coming through that event, right enough! Henry, you seem to be forgetting that the Lions share of finals were being held in Western countries at this point. The Poles and Germans did alright in the odd years that the championship was held in their countries - including providing two World Champions in 1973 and 1983. But if you want to continue with the blinkered approach to riders who have not competed regularly in Britain, then that's up to you.  |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 0:24:04 GMT
Henry, you seem to be forgetting that the Lions share of finals were being held in Western countries at this point. And you seem to be conveniently forgetting that West Germany was a Western country. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 0:40:42 GMT
Henry, you seem to be forgetting that the Lions share of finals were being held in Western countries at this point. And you seem to be conveniently forgetting that West Germany was a Western country. Indeed. So the ONLY World Final held in a Eastern European during the whole of the 1980s was the 1986 World Final in Poland. And then HenryW wonders why the East European riders were struggling a little in World Finals during this period. |
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Post by admin on Dec 31, 2008 0:50:12 GMT
And then HenryW wonders why the East European riders were struggling a little in World Finals during this period. Very few world individual finals were held behind the Iron Curtain - five to be precise (1970, 1973, 1976, 1979 and 1986), but you're in danger of trapping yourself, young fellow. You hail Muller's Continental Finals, but then concede that the Eastern Europeans were struggling at the time, largely for reasons that I'm sure henryw is familiar with. The Eastern Europeans were hamstrung by the constraints imposed by the communist system. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 11:01:47 GMT
1982 - ref's decision was right, Penhall didn't touch Carter at the point where Carter fell. You keep insisting this but you are, quite simply, wrong. You can see the contact on a good quality copy of the original footage. I've seen it. There was contact. Penhall knocked him off. His wheel flicked out and swiped away Carter's handlebars, sending Carter into the fence. And I'd take Penhall over Carter as World Champion any time. But it is an undisputable fact that there was contact. Once you've seen it, you can't miss it. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 11:22:17 GMT
And then HenryW wonders why the East European riders were struggling a little in World Finals during this period. Very few world individual finals were held behind the Iron Curtain - five to be precise (1970, 1973, 1976, 1979 and 1986), but you're in danger of trapping yourself, young fellow. You hail Muller's Continental Finals, but then concede that the Eastern Europeans were struggling at the time, largely for reasons that I'm sure henryw is familiar with. The Eastern Europeans were hamstrung by the constraints imposed by the communist system. Subedei - it's a tricky one, simply because East European doesn't quite equal Continental, i.e. the Germans, Dutch, etc also competed in this half of the World Championship draw. I'm surprised you mention the Communist system as a "constraint", surely the reason the Poles and Russians did so well for a while was the fact their machinery was state-funded by the communists. Of course, by the 1980s, this was all falling to pieces and could explain the lull in Polish Speedway during this time. The fact remains that four-times Continental Champion is quite a feather in Muller's bow, which was my original point. |
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 11:32:27 GMT
1982 - ref's decision was right, Penhall didn't touch Carter at the point where Carter fell. You keep insisting this but you are, quite simply, wrong. You can see the contact on a good quality copy of the original footage. I've seen it. There was contact. Penhall knocked him off. His wheel flicked out and swiped away Carter's handlebars, sending Carter into the fence. And I'd take Penhall over Carter as World Champion any time. But it is an undisputable fact that there was contact. Once you've seen it, you can't miss it. Grachan - I looked again last time you posted this and there is no contact. The last contact between Penhall & Carter is halfway around the bend; Carter fell on the exit to the second bend. There is no contact at this point. I'm sorry, I can't see it. On the other hand, I don't deny that there was contact between Nielsen & Knudsen, but in that case Nielsen was through and Knudsen was trying to lean back onto Nielsen. Moving onto another controversial decision, Frank Ebdon made the right decision to exclude Hans in the 1993 World Final, after Sam Ermolenko fell. However, quite what happened in the re-run, where Ermolenko lost his chain and still managed to get in the re-run is a complete mystery. One year Hans definitely lost out thanks to the ref was the 1994 World Final. There's no way he should have been excluded from the first bend incident in his fourth ride, as Mark Loram gave him a very clear nudge. I'm sure Nielsen would have got at least one point from that race and that would have been all he needed, without the need of the run-off, by which time his leg injury was catching up with him. But some say Hans was lucky in 1986, so it's all swings and roundabouts. Of course, the problem with the GP series is much of this drama is lost. The chance of a World Championship hinging on a single race or ref's decision these days is minimal - we're lucky if the championship chase goes down to the final round. Something special has been lost. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 11:42:08 GMT
Seriously, Rob. It's there. You can't see it on Youtube. You can't even see it on my video that I have. But Steve Shovlar posted DVD quality pictures once, and it was a revelation. I just suddenly saw it on one viewing.
Focus on Carter's left had as he moves up alongside Penhall and it's there as Penhall locks up slightly. Bang. Even if you don't spot it it really is there. Trust me. I'll argue the toss with anyone who claims there wasn't contact from this moment on. It has become my life's goal.
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Post by Genghis on Dec 31, 2008 11:48:28 GMT
It has become my life's goal. Grachan - really? I think you need a better "life's goal". ::)Maybe it should be to push Rosco to one side, take the Robins by the scruff of the neck and lead to them to the Elite League Championship. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2008 11:50:33 GMT
Maybe I should make it my life's goal to insist that Hans Neilsen lifted coming out of bend four and speared Tommy Knudsen in 1986 instead. After all, surely nobody could possibly dispute that one on watching the video.
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