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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 7:31:59 GMT
Nothing to do with bitteness paul .. just common sense . With our full team we would be in the final simple as that ... lyon fucked up big time and choose to pick king in poland only someone who knew nothing about speedway would have done that . Time for people to admit they were wrong ands start eating some humple pie . How loads of texts and pm's on monday saying i was wrong tonight nothing tells the story ;D ;D This night and match will be remember for how lyon cost us a place in the world cup final . The last thing i want to do is drive a wedge between us Hatcham and Hortonfan. Team GB is a very emotive subject and is bound to cause arguements in these sort of instances . You have your opinion of Rob Lyon , as your posting on the flapperjack thread so colourfully illustrates , and i have mine . That impass wont change as i think , given time , Lyon will do ok . It's my firm belief that the British number 6 made himself unavailable for selection as i'm sure he would have been chosen last night as the youngsters had been given Monday to blood them into international speedway . The likes of Bridger , King and Woffinden will need time at this level of speedway , they may never get there - who knows . But i feel it's better to get behind the national team , rather than constantly belittling their efforts .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 8:00:32 GMT
Let's a look at things realistic.
There was never a chance we were going to miss out on the race-off with Slovenia. So it was ideal time to give the youngsters a go with hardly any pressure. As for the race-off, you probably wouldn't have chosen much of a different side. Nicholls has shot it end of.
I'd even wage that if you looked at the Polish averages and put a 80% levelage on Liga 1, Nicholls wouldn't be there in the Top 5.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 9:07:45 GMT
Nothing to do with bitteness paul .. just common sense . With our full team we would be in the final simple as that ... lyon fucked up big time and choose to pick king in poland only someone who knew nothing about speedway would have done that . Time for people to admit they were wrong ands start eating some humple pie . How loads of texts and pm's on monday saying i was wrong tonight nothing tells the story ;D ;D This night and match will be remember for how lyon cost us a place in the world cup final . The last thing i want to do is drive a wedge between us Hatcham and Hortonfan. Team GB is a very emotive subject and is bound to cause arguements in these sort of instances . You have your opinion of Rob Lyon , as your posting on the flapperjack thread so colourfully illustrates , and i have mine . That impass wont change as i think , given time , Lyon will do ok . It's my firm belief that the British number 6 made himself unavailable for selection as i'm sure he would have been chosen last night as the youngsters had been given Monday to blood them into international speedway . The likes of Bridger , King and Woffinden will need time at this level of speedway , they may never get there - who knows . But i feel it's better to get behind the national team , rather than constantly belittling their efforts . I don't think i can be accused of "constantly belittling their efforts" Paulco, last year when we failed i accepted the reasons, and left it at that, this year however i fail to see what credentials Lyon has for the job and feel very strongly that his shortcomings have cost Team GB a final place. I'd like to make it quite clear i am not a Danny King hater, he's a pleasant enough lad who tries his best and can pull off the occasional 'great ride' he is however almost 23 and showing no great signs of improvement, his records and achievements are no better than those of lets say Olly Allen, Simon Stead or David Howe and i would think it was at the very least highly debatable that he'll even be in the squad next year. I don't know a lot about the young up and coming riders we have in Britain, Genghis tries to support and follow our future talent and i'm sure he could give us a few names to watch out for, but even i know of Barker, Haines, Frampton and Mear who all have more potential than Danny does. It is not in my nature to pick on people, and to be honest i derive no joy from seeing Bridger and King fail last night, but in my opinion the experience will have done more harm than good. As i have said on numerous occasions British speedway should make it easier for British riders to succeed, allowing home grown riders a 'reduced average' would be a start, then maybe we could see an end to the likes of Frampton and Lanham being driven out of the Elite mid season. I have also always campaigned for a reduction in Elite league matches and more international and individual meetings. I want to be positive about all speedway particularly British, but cannot go against my own thoughts and feelings, i think we all know in our hearts that if the overlooked rider had been anyone other than Scott Nicholls we would be seeing a completely different picture.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 9:47:39 GMT
Brilliantly put Hatcham.
When we people realise that we're not complaining for the sake of it??!!
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Post by Genghis on Jul 17, 2009 11:08:24 GMT
Brilliantly put Hatcham. When we people realise that we're not complaining for the sake of it??!! Oooogen McDoogen, but surely Monday & last night's performance and commitment was far better than the two performances in the World Cup last year. We needed flesh blood in the team - last year (especially at Cov) was such a stale performance. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Yes, you can say Nicholls replacing Bridger and scoring 5 points would have got us through, but with a different set or riders things may have developed differently. As Richardson repeatedly said, it's a team peformance and part of what happens out on track is a result on how the team bond together in the pits and assist each other on getting bikes set up, etc. Team spirit is important and it was highly evident in the GB section of the pits last night. Hatcham, you're right in that Danny King probably isn't going to be part of the long-term future - however, surely after Monday, he had to be given a shot at the race-off? I would say Woffinden, Bridger, Barker, Haines and either Auty or Mear are the long-term future of the team. However, surely the likes of Kennett and King can be given a shot in the meantime to see how they perform. And who's to say Nicholls won't be back in the team next year? I think part of the reason for Nicholls's exclusion this year is that he didn't really want it himself - he's had a dog of the year. However, next year I doubt he'll be in the GPs and he might regain his mojo. An on-form and on-song Scott Nicholls would be part of the Team GB set-up for another 3-4 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 11:15:47 GMT
Brilliantly put Hatcham. When we people realise that we're not complaining for the sake of it??!! Oooogen McDoogen, but surely Monday & last night's performance and commitment was far better than the two performances in the World Cup last year. We needed flesh blood in the team - last year (especially at Cov) was such a stale performance. By all means blood a youngster (Woffinden is the best of the bunch IMO), but filling the majority of the team with them (when better riders are left out) is plain daft. It's been obvious this week that as a group they are not ready yet and therefore we should concentrate on getting them international experience in less critical situations, Test Matches for example. The bottom line is we got hammered at home by 20 points and then failed to get through the Race Off owing to only 3 riders contributing.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 17, 2009 11:23:37 GMT
Oooogen McDoogen, but surely Monday & last night's performance and commitment was far better than the two performances in the World Cup last year. We needed flesh blood in the team - last year (especially at Cov) was such a stale performance. By all means blood a youngster (Woffinden is the best of the bunch IMO), but filling the majority of the team with them (when better riders are left out) is plain daft. It's been obvious this week that as a group they are not ready yet and therefore we should concentrate on getting them international experience in less critical situations, Test Matches for example. The bottom line is we got hammered at home by 20 points and then failed to get through the Race Off owing to only 3 riders contributing. Good grief, this is the World Cup, only one nation can actually win it. Look back at 2002, when a far more experienced GB team finished seventh in the competition. This year's team showed a great deal of determination and spirit. That counts for a lot in my book. Anyone would think Scott Nicholls was scoring points for fun this year, the way you're going on. He's not, he's struggling like hell, look at his 4-point tally in a televised match at Peterborough, look at his low scores in Poland. The GP series has knocked the stuffing out of him, he probably didn't even want to be in the World Cup squad. Nicholls could be (and probably will be) a renewed man next season - and in that case, he would be part of our World Cup squad once more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 11:32:58 GMT
Good grief, this is the World Cup, only one nation can actually win it. Look back at 2002, when a far more experienced GB team finished seventh in the competition. No shit Sherlock! But every team should do everything it can to try to win it, we didn't. How about the 2004 team that only lost the trophy by a bike length on home soil. Now we get stuffed by 20 points in a qualifier in similar circumstances!
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Post by Genghis on Jul 17, 2009 11:40:50 GMT
Good grief, this is the World Cup, only one nation can actually win it. Look back at 2002, when a far more experienced GB team finished seventh in the competition. No shit Sherlock! But every team should do everything it can to try to win it, we didn't. How about the 2004 team that only lost the trophy by a bike length on home soil. Now we get stuffed by 20 points in a qualifier in similar circumstances! Yes, but we don't have team anymore. Loram is not riding due to injury, Floppy is knackered, and Havvy & Screen have both seen better days!! At some point, the national team has to regroup. That's what has happened this year. 5th is OK this year, in the next few years I'll expect better - maybe next year, maybe 2-3 years down the line. Remember even the Danes had to regroup in 1999 & 2000. And the Swedes spent most of the eighties in the doldrums, the Poles had about 20 years in the doldrums. And we're in a far, far better position than the once mighty USA currently finds itself in. Have a little patience - the likes of Woffinen, Bridger, Barker and Haines are arguably our most exciting crop for many a year. We'll come good.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 12:02:18 GMT
No shit Sherlock! But every team should do everything it can to try to win it, we didn't. How about the 2004 team that only lost the trophy by a bike length on home soil. Now we get stuffed by 20 points in a qualifier in similar circumstances! Yes, but we don't have team anymore. Loram is not riding due to injury, Floppy is knackered, and Havvy & Screen have both seen better days!! At some point, the national team has to regroup. That's what has happened this year. 5th is OK this year, in the next few years I'll expect better - maybe next year, maybe 2-3 years down the line. Remember even the Danes had to regroup in 1999 & 2000. And the Swedes spent most of the eighties in the doldrums, the Poles had about 20 years in the doldrums. And we're in a far, far better position than the once mighty USA currently finds itself in. Have a little patience - the likes of Woffinen, Bridger, Barker and Haines are arguably our most exciting crop for many a year. We'll come good. Why then have you quoted 2002??
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Post by Genghis on Jul 17, 2009 12:07:57 GMT
Yes, but we don't have team anymore. Loram is not riding due to injury, Floppy is knackered, and Havvy & Screen have both seen better days!! At some point, the national team has to regroup. That's what has happened this year. 5th is OK this year, in the next few years I'll expect better - maybe next year, maybe 2-3 years down the line. Remember even the Danes had to regroup in 1999 & 2000. And the Swedes spent most of the eighties in the doldrums, the Poles had about 20 years in the doldrums. And we're in a far, far better position than the once mighty USA currently finds itself in. Have a little patience - the likes of Woffinen, Bridger, Barker and Haines are arguably our most exciting crop for many a year. We'll come good. Why then have you quoted 2002?? Simply because you keep on hapring on about finishing only 5th, so I was giving an example of a year we didn't manage even that. We also failed to reach the final in 1976 when we had the likes of Collins (World No 1 that year), Simmons (World No 2 that year), Louis, Jessup and Kennett to call upon. So what's so bad about not reaching the final this year? Is your glass always half empty? (Probably the result of Rosco giving you short measures). ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 13:33:05 GMT
Why then have you quoted 2002?? Simply because you keep on hapring on about finishing only 5th, so I was giving an example of a year we didn't manage even that. We also failed to reach the final in 1976 when we had the likes of Collins (World No 1 that year), Simmons (World No 2 that year), Louis, Jessup and Kennett to call upon. So what's so bad about not reaching the final this year? Is your glass always half empty? (Probably the result of Rosco giving you short measures). ;D It would be totally empty if I waited for Rosco to buy the contents Rob! Half full, half empty - either way I'm a realist.
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Post by schumi on Jul 17, 2009 14:03:34 GMT
To address a couple of points on this thread:
The statement about Lyon being incompetent/costing us a place in the final by not putting Nicholls in the team - who's to say Nicholls even wanted to ride? Richardson was dropped on Monday, but was still in the pits, Kennett was dropped yesterday, but was still there offering support, Nicholls was no-where to be seen - perhaps by his own choice? I refuse to call someone a flapperjack unless I'm in possession of most of the facts, and in this case there could be any number of reasons why Nicholls didn't ride, and not all of them are Rob Lyon's fault. Perhaps, like in the case of Boycie and Sullivan, there was no choice to be made?
And the point about morale dropping for Lewis and Danny because they didn't have inspiration? Well, if we'd made the final we'd have been on the receiving end of certain defeat - surely that would have been worse for them?
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Post by schumi on Jul 17, 2009 14:13:40 GMT
No mention on this thread that I've seen of Craig Boyce's comments about Ryan Sullivan not turning up. This was on Ryan's website, giving his version of events:
Ryan said: "Boyce told me Crump wanted me off the team because my face didn't fit. So I agreed to stay home to keep the team happy and I wished them luck! Boyce also admitted he gave me the worst draw in Peterborough with twice gate 3 every track grade. I don't think if they want me to ride in the final, but if they do, I'am ready to race for Australia!"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2009 14:39:55 GMT
To address a couple of points on this thread: The statement about Lyon being incompetent/costing us a place in the final by not putting Nicholls in the team - who's to say Nicholls even wanted to ride? Richardson was dropped on Monday, but was still in the pits, Kennett was dropped yesterday, but was still there offering support, Nicholls was no-where to be seen - perhaps by his own choice? I refuse to call someone a flapperjack unless I'm in possession of most of the facts, and in this case there could be any number of reasons why Nicholls didn't ride, and not all of them are Rob Lyon's fault. Perhaps, like in the case of Boycie and Sullivan, there was no choice to be made? And the point about morale dropping for Lewis and Danny because they didn't have inspiration? Well, if we'd made the final we'd have been on the receiving end of certain defeat - surely that would have been worse for them? You and Paulco might be quite correct Schumster, maybe Nicholls decided not to ride, but if that's the case why has Lyon or his paymasters not come out and said so ? the side was selected for Peterborough on a wave of 'giving the youngsters a go' and if you look back to earlier posts made by myself my critisicm was about the dropping of Richardson which was simply unbelievable. Your point about not critisizing someone without being in possession of all the facts is a very valid one but not one which it appears many of our members would concur with, at least not where Nicholls is concerned, he was of course roundly condemned for turning his back on the Elite, yet none of us know what he was actually offered, his arrogance propelled him to announce that "several clubs had enquired about his plans" but what does that really mean ? surely the various team managers come into contact with all the riders on a regular basis and it would be unprofessional for them to not enquire about rider plans, they do after all need to keep their options open. I can't see that there we many doors open for Scott, possibly only Seahawk town, and what would Bobby D have offered him ? lets not forget the Hawks are struggling financially and their preferred day of operation is a saturday, how many saturdays are there in a speedway season ? 30 ? allowing for two or three to be postponed and another two or three to be switched for Monday night live, Two world cup saturdays and 11 GP's that means almost two thirds of their matches have to be switched or run against serious competition. If i was in Bobby D's shoes i would have looked to run without a GP rider or at the very least offer reduced terms to compensate for the matches where i run without him. We also read press reports that supposedly quote his comments about Harris, but do we know them to be true ? We hear about his ongoing feud with the Bombster,yet Coventry were happy to bring him back, and Harris himself said he was happy to have Scott back and to not have to ride at number 1.
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