Is speedway fixed?

[Deleted]

It's funny,because i was thinking about this today at work.Basically thinking about the young Swedish riders and how they will progress got me thinking about something that was mentioned during the winter.I was asking one of the Swedish guys about a rider i had seen a few years back.A rider called Mattias Nilsson,who was in a side along with Eric Andersson + Ricky kling.This rider seemed to me to be the best prospect.Saw him a year later in the Danish Superleague competing against riders like Miedzinski,Jablonski,Jankowski.Yeah i know i said the Danish league ;D.He helped his team win the Elitserien as well i think that year(2005).But when i asked the guy about him his reply was "He can only ride the one track well.He is rubbish away from home".Makes you wonder how that can happen when most of the Swedish tracks are fairly similar lengths.Maybe the shape is slightly different but surely that makes for infinitesimal adjustment over 300m.
Also made me think about a reply i got from Herman on the BSF.Talking about Mirko Wolter,i said he was the most talented rider from Germany in the last 10-15 years.Herman(who has far more knowledge of these things than me) said that Mirko was only really World class on about 3 or 4 tracks.One being Güstrow(just under 300m) another being Pardubice(400m!).Now how can he be a great rider on those two tracks but not on any inbetween those distances?
Maybe Steve can go someway to answering this?

[admin]

Well, call me naive, but I really don't think speedway is "fixed" - it may be broken, in fact there's little doubt it is broken, but it isn't fixed, as far as I'm concerned.
You don't often see a shock result in the sport, do you? I mean most people with a fair amount of knowledge can, with a reasonable degree of accuracy predict the result of your average Elite League meeting.
And this season has seen more meetings away from home being won than most. This is, however, more a result of the Elite League being split between the haves and the haven'ts. So, I don't believe there's a culture of brown envelopes changing hands in the pits, although I guess such conjecture might explain how BSI came to lose £500,000 in little over a year at Reading.
However, the rules and especially Britain's total submission to the tyranny of averages does encourage sharp practice, as does the happiness with which British speedway doles out facilities to cover missing riders.
Who really cares if Greg Hancock goes "missing" for the odd fixture, as long as he gets a medical certificate and the club gets a guest facility? And then there was the fiasco over Ales Dryml at Oxford, prior to the club's closure.
British speedway, in my view, may lack credibility, but it isn't bent.

[Genghis]

What a dopey thread

Of course, Speedway is not fixed. You might get the odd occassion what a rider helps out a fellow countryman or a mate in a World Championship round, but that's about it.

Sub - Reading lost £500,000 in a year by paying Sam £70,000, Lynch £40,000, wasting a packet on a rubbish TV advert and paying the riders way over the odds.

All the best
Rob

[admin]

I don't agree with the sentiments of the thread. Like yourself, I don't think speedway is fixed. But at the same time, I don't think it's a dopey thread. In fact, I think we're having a very worthwhile debate, because I would hope that you, having accepted that a short time ago you were "defending the indefensible", recognise the BSPA encourage the sharp practice that some promotions actively pursue.

[Genghis]

admin said:

I don't agree with the sentiments of the thread. Like yourself, I don't think speedway is fixed. But at the same time, I don't think it's a dopey thread. In fact, I think we're having a very worthwhile debate, because I would hope that you, having accepted that a short time ago you were "defending the indefensible", the BSPA encourage the sharp practice that some promotions actively pursue.

Sub,

To clarify, the original premise of the thread is dopey, some of the tangents it has taken are not.

All the best
Rob

[admin]

Well, we wouldn't have taken those tangents without the original post, so the thread isn't dopey in my opinion. Besides, the fellow who started the thread had real, genuine concerns. Better to air them and have a discussion. That's what the weird world is all about.

[Deleted]

I certainly don't think speedway is "fixed" in the way that the original poster suggested, and I'll get back to that in a moment, but first I wanted to mention the race at Arlington on Monday that the original poster brought up.

Nicki was allowed to cross the line first by his team mate to collect a full house. I certainly don't see that as "fixing". It's a team mate doing the honourable thing for his skipper who, incidentally, had been quite happy to sit in behind his partner all race long. I'm sure Nicki could have blitzed Watto if he had wanted, but just settled back and coasted along behind him for the 5-1 until the run-in where Watto shut off to let him by.

The thing that really interested me was the interaction between Nicki and Davey as they rolled round on their victory lap. Maybe I was reading wrong signals, and I'd love another opinion, but the body language and gestures seemed to me to suggest that Davey was telling Nicki that he tried to let him past for the win, while Nicki was telling him that he was wearing the red helmet and was leading the race, so entitled to the win.

Anyways....Going back to the subject of fixing and home wins....
I don't accept that home riders have anything other than a HUGE advantage on their track. If anything else is the case then the track team need a good slapping.
Even if two tracks are exactly the same shape, the preparation of the track is vital, and the rider's confidence in that preparation is also vital.
If you are used to racing in one style week after week, whether that style is hugging the line, sweeping the boards or diving wide and cuting back, it must take a serious change in mind-set to switch to racing in another style entirely....especially when you know that the slightest mistake can see you on the floor with 3 other guys charging along behind you.
Then there's a question of finance for the lower rated riders. If you can get your equipment tuned and set perfect for your home track, do you really want to spend money messing with it for a one-off visit to another track? That is probably most relevant for guys going between completely different shaped tracks. Would you spend a big wedge setting up for IOW when you normally race Armadale, especially if the financial reward for success was less than, or equal to, what you would get in return for a great score on the Island?

Oh Crap! I just defended the Monarchs dismal showing...that wasn't my intention...honest ;D

[donsking]

One thing I would like to point out; this was less about brown envelopes stuffed full of used tenners, and more to do with the idea of engineering or manipulating things, in an effort to keep it interesting.

As such, screwing around with averages, buying points, letting your mate through etc. would come under my umberella term of 'fixing'.

As Sub says, the rules as they stand are open to abuse and, as in most sports, that abuse will take place.

What interests me more is the concept that keeping the punters meandering through your turnstiles is the name of the game, and winning is the way to make that happen; I'm just curious to know what lengths the sport might go to to make that happen.

[donsking]

henryw said:

I certainly don't think speedway is "fixed" in the way that the original poster suggested, and I'll get back to that in a moment, but first I wanted to mention the race at Arlington on Monday that the original poster brought up.

Nicki was allowed to cross the line first by his team mate to collect a full house. I certainly don't see that as "fixing". It's a team mate doing the honourable thing for his skipper who, incidentally, had been quite happy to sit in behind his partner all race long. I'm sure Nicki could have blitzed Watto if he had wanted, but just settled back and coasted along behind him for the 5-1 until the run-in where Watto shut off to let him by.

The thing that really interested me was the interaction between Nicki and Davey as they rolled round on their victory lap. Maybe I was reading wrong signals, and I'd love another opinion, but the body language and gestures seemed to me to suggest that Davey was telling Nicki that he tried to let him past for the win, while Nicki was telling him that he was wearing the red helmet and was leading the race, so entitled to the win.

Anyways....Going back to the subject of fixing and home wins....
I don't accept that home riders have anything other than a HUGE advantage on their track. If anything else is the case then the track team need a good slapping.
Even if two tracks are exactly the same shape, the preparation of the track is vital, and the rider's confidence in that preparation is also vital.
If you are used to racing in one style week after week, whether that style is hugging the line, sweeping the boards or diving wide and cuting back, it must take a serious change in mind-set to switch to racing in another style entirely....especially when you know that the slightest mistake can see you on the floor with 3 other guys charging along behind you.
Then there's a question of finance for the lower rated riders. If you can get your equipment tuned and set perfect for your home track, do you really want to spend money messing with it for a one-off visit to another track? That is probably most relevant for guys going between completely different shaped tracks. Would you spend a big wedge setting up for IOW when you normally race Armadale, especially if the financial reward for success was less than, or equal to, what you would get in return for a great score on the Island?

Oh Crap! I just defended the Monarchs dismal showing...that wasn't my intention...honest ;D

Bit of post crossfire there, I was typing mine as henry was posting his.............

Can't comment on the victory lap body language, I'd lost interest by then and was packing my stuff away, but Pedersen was nowhere near passing, or even challenging Watt until the exit of the last turn, so there was some kind of collusion or intent there; what it suggests to me was that the plot was hatched in the pits, Watt leads until the last possible moment, and so becomes the moral victor, Pedersen collects his maximum and maybe drops Davey a few quid in return; whatever happened, it was pretty transparent and not very entertaining to my jaundiced eye.

Turning my attention to the other points raised, if you're worth your salt, don't you try any line that's available to you to win? (I make that comment as a racer, although not of speedway).

If you want to win, you do everything, inside, outside, through the middle, in fact, whatever it takes; what henry and maccattack's posts suggest to me is, speedway riders might not be as accomplished as I give them credit for, although I'd welcome any speedway rider's input here.

As for cost of changing setups, as I understand it all that's really available, once you've sorted your basic package, is clutch, gearing and ignition timing adjustments; apart from the cost of some sprockets, everything else is free, so I can't see that as a limiting factor, again, any advice to the contrary from riders would be most welcome.

[schumi]

donsking said:

What interests me more is the concept that keeping the punters meandering through your turnstiles is the name of the game, and winning is the way to make that happen; I'm just curious to know what lengths the sport might go to to make that happen.

I'd say there's no doubt that success brings (and maintains) support. But if there was a way of manipulating the results to do that, I think a few promoters recently would be glad to know the secret!

[admin]

donsking said:

Can't comment on the victory lap body language, I'd lost interest by then and was packing my stuff away, but Pedersen was nowhere near passing, or even challenging Watt until the exit of the last turn, so there was some kind of collusion or intent there; what it suggests to me was that the plot was hatched in the pits, Watt leads until the last possible moment, and so becomes the moral victor, Pedersen collects his maximum and maybe drops Davey a few quid in return; whatever happened, it was pretty transparent and not very entertaining to my jaundiced eye.

But the whole meeting wasn't very entertaining, was it? I saw a little on the television and switched off - I guess you can't do that in the stadium. So, in that context perhaps your reaction to Ht 15 was more a comment on the meeting as a whole. Maybe if the scoreline had been closer, maybe if the racing had been remotely interesting, the goings-on in Ht 15 wouldn't have grabbed your attention so much.
Because this is, after all, a team sport and you really can't expect Nicki P and Davey Watt to knock seven colours out of each other when sitting on an easy 5-1 in Ht 15, can you? I guess Watt thought Nicki P would appreciate a full maximum, so with nothing to lose he just allowed his team mate to pass on the way to the line. Nothing untoward in that, as far as I'm concerned.
The problem for me was the 14 races that preceeded Ht 15, which just weren't entertaining enough. The 3-4 heats that I saw were shit, in spite of Nigel Pearson's pathetic and ridiculous attempts to make out the television public were watching a classic. They weren't and Nigel Pearson needs to stop insulting the intelligence of the viewing public or fuck off.
I noticed on a thread at the BSF that Mateusz, who watches his speedway predominantly at the universally acclaimed Bydgoszcz track, wondering how Pearson would cope with commentating on an Ekstraliga fixture, where the passing comes thick and fast.

[stevehone]

everyone used to pay me to let them win ;D

[admin]

Did you get extra for falling off?
In all seriousness, I saw young Hone make his National League debut for Canterbury at Berwick's old Berrington Lough track.

[stevehone]

admin said:

Did you get extra for falling off?
In all seriousness, I saw young Hone make his National League debut for Canterbury at Berwick's old Berrington Lough track.

yeah, and fell off 3 times in 2 races ;D

i went and won my 2nd half race though





proof of both ;D ;D

[Deleted]

donsking said:

These days, I kinda get the impression that watching speedway is a bit like the World Of Sport Saturday afternoon staple of "Let's hand over to Kent Walton, and Professional Wrestling"; we all knew it was fixed, but it made interesting viewing.

Speedway is undoubtedly somewhat contrived in that it exploits the fact that home track knowledge is a huge advantage in order ensure that the home promotion usually prevails. Rules such as the points limits, tac subs and tac rides have also been derived to give the home team even more advantages, thus making away wins a rarity. However, I don't think the speedway is 'fixed' as such as there is still the chance for away teams to pull-off shocks, whereas in wrestling the result was undoubtedly pre-ordained.

I think the lack of away wins is simply part of the sport, and being able to win the occasional meeting away is the definition of a successful team. Similarly, in the days of three-day county cricket, matches were usually drawn, and it was the teams who could actually win the odd match who ended-up winning the championship.

I don't doubt that in the past some races have been fixed for various reasons (some legitimate, some not), but I don't believe it's commonplace.

With respect to team-mates 'conspiring' to finish in various positions in races, well that's surely an aspect of team racing. Firstly, they shouldn't be racing against each other, and secondly the scoring system shouldn't penalise team-mates. Thirdly, the nonsense of teams dropping points so they could bring in tac subs could have been prevented by making the margin eight points - then it wouldn't be worthwhile.