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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 0:46:03 GMT
Look at the WHOLE picture - who's got the most FIM Gold Medals - Hans or Ivan? I think you'll find it's 22 to Hans and 14 to Ivan. Oh! I should look at the WHOLE picture, should I? How many of those gold medals did Hans receive as an individual? How many did Ivan receive as an individual? Hans had the luck of being born Danish in an era that saw Ole Olsen, Erik Gundersen, Tommy Knudsen and Jan O Pedersen alongside him (to name but a few), which gave him his huge haul of medals.... Danish riders scored maximums on the way to the gold medal in the one-off WTC Final in 1983, 1984 and 1985. Was Hans one of them? No! Did he play a much lesser part in these events and take a gold medal for his trouble? Yes! I don't doubt you here. Hans was immense at BL level. He delivered for his club week in, week out, and for that he has to be respected....but in only in the same way that Leigh Adams has to be respected for this as well His ability to cave when it came to the real pressure situations is what I will always remember him for, and by that I mean his World Title run-offs....of course, Ivan Mauger's performance in 73 suggests he wasn't much better
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 0:49:26 GMT
of course, Ivan Mauger's performance in 73 suggests he wasn't much better And that dear old Jerzy Szczakiel was the best. Okay, glad we've sorted that all out and that we've all agreed that Jerzy was the king of all time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 0:50:52 GMT
And Nielsen is the rider I think is the best Speedway rider of all-time - he was the COMPLETE package. Look at what I posted on the Nielsen thread, as to why I think this. Oooh! I hadn't actually noticed that thread. I might just head over there shortly and investigate it....
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 0:52:39 GMT
It's just under this one in the 1980s section. But why bother when we've already decided that Jerzy was king?
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 1:03:22 GMT
Try asking Norbold, his favourite is a bloke who he never saw, and didn't score that highly on the WC front, but he's still revered by long term speedway fans. But, then again, Tom Farndon, whom I believe norbold favours, is almost speedway's equivalent of Duncan Edwards - didn't Farndon hold just about every track record in the country at the time of his death? Not sure about the Farndon/Edwards connection, Duncan Edwards is probably the most debated 'would he or wouldn't he have been the greatest, if he wasn't actually dead?' question in football, or maybe sport as a whole; in terms of speedway, Duncan Edwards is up there with Tommy Jansson, who knows? Tom Farndon was the greatest speedway rider the sport had ever known at that stage, multiple track records, so many prizes that even Norbold can't identify the sash Farndon's granddaughter has in her possession, but we will never know whether or not he was better than another rider who went down in history as another 'was he the best or not', Peter Craven. As I've been trying to point out, somewhat unsuccessfully, stats mean Jack Shit, it's what an individual means to you, either by experience or gut feeling, that makes the difference between the best and the not so best
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 1:08:28 GMT
I was referring more to the emotional outpouring that followed Farndon's death and continues to this day, with, I believe, people still visiting that wonderful headstone, rather than the debate surrounding his merits as the "greatest ever".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 1:10:17 GMT
It's just under this one in the 1980s section. But why bother when we've already decided that Jerzy was king? Yeah....not sure how I missed that thread until now. I'm gonna hold off on hitting that one until I have mentally prepared myself to fully assault the Danish "pretender"! As for Jerzy...I think we all know he aint all that! When I visited Opole the other year there, I was amused to see a big banner declaring Jerzy as an Opole legend at the start line. This was in one of the worst stadiums I have ever witnessed in Poland. To describe how bad it was, it wouldn't have looked out of place in the British PL!! I trust they had better when the great man raced for them!
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 1:43:15 GMT
Yeah....not sure how I missed that thread until now. I'm gonna hold off on hitting that one until I have mentally prepared myself to fully assault the Danish "pretender"! As for Jerzy...I think we all know he aint all that! When I visited Opole the other year there, I was amused to see a big banner declaring Jerzy as an Opole legend at the start line. This was in one of the worst stadiums I have ever witnessed in Poland. To describe how bad it was, it wouldn't have looked out of place in the British PL!! I trust they had better when the great man raced for them! But Jerzy must be at the top of the tree, Rob says stats are all that counts, and Jerzy was a WC afterall................
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 10:08:43 GMT
Oh! I should look at the WHOLE picture, should I? How many of those gold medals did Hans receive as an individual? How many did Ivan receive as an individual? Hans had the luck of being born Danish in an era that saw Ole Olsen, Erik Gundersen, Tommy Knudsen and Jan O Pedersen alongside him (to name but a few), which gave him his huge haul of medals.... Danish riders scored maximums on the way to the gold medal in the one-off WTC Final in 1983, 1984 and 1985. Was Hans one of them? No! Did he play a much lesser part in these events and take a gold medal for his trouble? Yes! A much lesser part? Hans's WTC scores from 1978 to 1985: 11,9,11,11,11,11,10 12 points being a maximum. Would suggest he was the consistent rock the Danish team was built upon. Even at the height of the Nielsen-Olsen feud, Olsen realised this and made sure Nielsen was back for the 1985 final in America. Also I suggest you look at the 1986 and 1988 World Pairs Finals. In both cases, Gundersen had an inconsistent meeting, only for a maximum from Hans Nielsen to see the Danes through. In 1978, Denmark's first WTC win, who was top scorer for the Danes - Nielsen or Olsen? (And Ole was World Champ that year). No sign of Erik, Jan O or Tommy at one point - and Erik was slightly older than Hans. It was a very young Hans who helped spark off the tremedous run of Danish success. Denmark were hugely successful, but Nielsen was a major, major part in that. Find one out of those 22 Gold Medals, where Hans had a geniunely bad meeting and the Danes still won the gold. You'll have to look hard, because there isn't one All the best Rob
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 10:23:15 GMT
Yeah....not sure how I missed that thread until now. I'm gonna hold off on hitting that one until I have mentally prepared myself to fully assault the Danish "pretender"! As for Jerzy...I think we all know he aint all that! When I visited Opole the other year there, I was amused to see a big banner declaring Jerzy as an Opole legend at the start line. This was in one of the worst stadiums I have ever witnessed in Poland. To describe how bad it was, it wouldn't have looked out of place in the British PL!! I trust they had better when the great man raced for them! But Jerzy must be at the top of the tree, Rob says stats are all that counts, and Jerzy was a WC afterall................ DonsKing, You do talk some garbage at times. Jerzy clearly is not in contention for being the best ever, but his 1973 World Final PLUS a 1971 World Paris title (where he scored a paid maximum) cllearly show he was a lot better than most British fans give him credit for. But it does show the narrownwss of your own argument - you're suggesting World Final run-offs are all that matter and Jerzy has a 100% record in these. Hans Nielsen's record in run-offs is much better than you suggest, he defeated five riders and lost to three in individual World Finals run-offs, this compares to two & two for Ivan Mauger. And looking to the World Pairs, Hans was selected ahead of Erik to contest the run-off at the end of the 1986 World Pairs and won it, whereas Ivan twice lost run-offs for the World Pairs title. So maybe Hans was better in the pressure situations than you suggest, although admittedly Erik Gundersen was brilliant in pressure situations (Erik was not the complete rider though, I saw him have some stinkers at domestic level). I would suggest you have to look at the performance over the whole season. And comparing Hans Nielsen to Leigh Adams. Adams records domestic averages of around 10.00-10.50, Nielsen at his absolute peak was 11.83 in 1986 and 11.73 in 1987. A bit of a difference really, especially as Hans was much, much better on the world stage than Leigh Adams. All the best Rob
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 10:34:51 GMT
As I've been trying to point out, somewhat unsuccessfully, stats mean Jack Shit, it's what an individual means to you, either by experience or gut feeling, that makes the difference between the best and the not so best OK, DonsKing I'll take you on using your own argument. This is WHY in my gut feeling Hans Nielsen is the best ever. It's 1988 in a league meeting at Ipswich. It's all down to the last-heat, although Oxford are two points up and with Nielsen & Wigg in the race, are favourites. Wigg is out in front, while unusally Nielsen is third, although he is right on second-placed Niemi's exhuast pipe. Entering the third/fourth bend, Niemi's forks snap and he comes down. In that moment, the most extraordinary thing happens. Hans Nielsen just stops. I don't mean lay it down - he stopped. Broadsided the bike, dug the footrest into the track and stopped the bike. All in the split-second after Niemi falling right in front of him. Most fans had to do a double-take, to check what had happened in front of their very eyes. The referee via the announcer expressed his praise for Nielsen around three times. This is what Hans Nielsen was at the top of the game for so long. His absolute bike control, which I've never seen equalled, kept him away from trouble and he stuck around to win more than ever other rider in history. So there you have it... that's WHY Nielsen is the best-ever, he was the most skilled motorcyclist ever to grace a Speedway bike. All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 13:55:06 GMT
So there you have it... that's WHY Nielsen is the best-ever, he was the most skilled motorcyclist ever to grace a Speedway bike. All the best Rob In your opinion, which isn't shared by anyone. Hell, I've seen John Branney pull the stopping dead during a race to avoid a rider in trouble stunt. On this occasion it was Jonas Raun at Berwick earlier this season. Raun righted himself and carried on racing, leaving Branney stuck, yet Branney caught and overhauled Raun. Frankly I find it incredulous that you bestow upon Nielsen the words "most skilled motorcyclist to ever grace a speedway bike". That's just silly. A great rider and a great champion, but the most skilled? Not when you consider the likes of the Morans, Mike Lee and Tomasz Gollob. The most gifted riders are not always the best - talent will only ever get you so far. Nielsen, like Mauger before him, was the complete package, exploiting his talents to their fullest.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 14:17:29 GMT
Frankly I find it incredulous that you bestow upon Nielsen the words "most skilled motorcyclist to ever grace a speedway bike". That's just silly. A great rider and a great champion, but the most skilled? Not when you consider the likes of the Morans, Mike Lee and Tomasz Gollob. Sub, During his nine years at Oxford, I saw Nielsen do something absolutely amazing stuff on a Speedway bike.... another was when the bike seized on him going into the third bend and he simply stepped off it on the centre green, while the bike thudded into the fence as a complete write-off. It's interesting that Mr. Gollob, himself a supreme motorcyclist, lists Nielsen as his sporting hero. Obviously Gollob saw some of what I saw - I recall in a past Speedway Star, Gollob stating he'd seen Nielsen and the complete mastery he had over the bike, and that's what inspired him. So far from my opinion being not "shared by anyone", it's actually agreed by Gollob, the bloke you idolise. So there All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 14:31:25 GMT
Come on Rob,neither you nor Gollob are in a position to say that.Not that Gollob has said that.Your knowledge of speedway riders goes back only as far as the late 60s or early 70s doesn't it?And there isn't enough film footage of the early riders to make your mind up one way or the other.Even Norbolds knowledge of Tom Farndon is mainly looking at record books and speedway mags(i think)
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 14:33:23 GMT
But, young donsking, Nielsen (a rider I admire greatly) could manage some remarkable things on a speedway bike. How many other riders have managed to do the following (second start): www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRp5E5i7I_M
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