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Post by donsking on Jul 7, 2007 22:33:10 GMT
Still, that's all ifs and buts.... And there, in those few words, is the problem; I find stats pretty meaningless, which is probably why I don't have a memory for them, or a vast database to refer to. It's what someone does for you that counts and it's an arguement I've had with Rob before; you can throw any amount of stats at a situation, but if you're incapable of applying emotion, instinct or experience, they all mean nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 22:49:25 GMT
Fair point donsking....It aint all about stats. If you asked me to name the riders I'd most like to see racing at their peak again, my top picks would include a rider that never achieved anything at an international level....
Who are they? Erik Gundersen would top my list. Andy Galvin would be not far behind. Gary Havelock would be just after him. Dennis Sigalos would also appear.
If you offered me the chance to watch Ivan Mauger and Hans Nielsen at their peak having match races, I'd probably opt for an afternoon in the park watching the grass grow instead.
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Post by donsking on Jul 7, 2007 23:08:04 GMT
Before I go any further, I wasn't a big watcher of speedway through the 80s, but I was aware of what was going on; I thought Carter was an arrogant flapperjack that had a great deal of talent, if he'd had some humility, he might've recognised his potential; so that's him dealt with.
I actually agree with you henry, the idea of Mauger V Nielsen sounds pretty dull to me, but I would still put Ivan at the top of my list, if only because he made the sport a more professional one and, to my mind was the most feared rider at Wimbledon in the period that I was going there.
As it turns out, the stats say he was pretty fucking good too, but that's coincidental to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 23:50:32 GMT
As it turns out, the stats say he was pretty fucking good too.... And, By God, does he ever let us know it!
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 23:59:01 GMT
I wasn't a big watcher of speedway through the 80s, but I was aware of what was going on; I thought Carter was an arrogant flapperjack that had a great deal of talent, if he'd had some humility, he might've recognised his potential; so that's him dealt with Agreed! All the best Rob
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 0:03:56 GMT
Carter put Wigg in the shade with only one good leg at Oxford (wiggs own track) and at Brandon in the British Final , say no more. Wiggy reached the 1984 World Final, Carter didn't, say no more Wiggy also won FIVE individual World Championships - how many did Carter win All the best Rob
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 0:06:11 GMT
Maybe he does, but I can remember when Wimbledon had two multiple champions in it's team, two riders who have gone down in history as being a couple of the greatest, and us fans were still shit scared of Ivan.
I happen to agree with the statement 'nice guys finish last', you need that killer instinct to get to the top, but I have the feeling that Ronnie Moore and, to a lesser extent, Barry Briggs, got there on talent alone, in a less complicated age; Ivan changed the face of the sport, and his killer instinct was passed down through the generations, and that's where we find ourselves now.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 0:06:42 GMT
As it turns out, the stats say he was pretty fucking good too.... And, By God, does he ever let us know it! And although I know DonsKing loathes to go by stats, but Hans Nielsen's overall career stats are even more impressive than those of Ivan Mauger. All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 0:09:41 GMT
Wiggy reached the 1984 World Final, Carter didn't, say no more While I have appeared as anti-Carter on this thread so far, that is a completely unfair statement. Did Kenny not get injured, while Simon Wigg had to bribe Mark Courtney to even have a chance of World Final glory....now THAT says a lot!! And Michael Schumacher won 7 individual World Championships, so I guess he was a better speedway rider than Simon Wigg
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 0:12:07 GMT
And although I know DonsKing loathes to go by stats, but Hans Nielsen's overall career stats are even more impressive than those of Ivan Mauger. I despise Ivan's lack of respect for Tony Rickardsson's achievements, but just what "stats" show Hans as better than Ivan?
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 0:13:59 GMT
And, By God, does he ever let us know it! And although I know DonsKing loathes to go by stats, but Hans Nielsen's overall career stats are even more impressive than those of Ivan Mauger. All the best Rob Then maybe I missed out by not paying enough attention through the 80s, but I still think Ivan Mauger is the best I've seen (and there's a lot of people who agree with me), although Mirac was my favourite. Try asking Norbold, his favourite is a bloke who he never saw, and didn't score that highly on the WC front, but he's still revered by long term speedway fans.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 0:19:22 GMT
I despise Ivan's lack of respect for Tony Rickardsson's achievements, but just what "stats" show Hans as better than Ivan? Look at the WHOLE picture - who's got the most FIM Gold Medals - Hans or Ivan? I think you'll find it's 22 to Hans and 14 to Ivan. Not to mention that Hans was a better league racer than Ivan, Ivan posted some superb averages, but Hans posted the best-ever averages. All the best Rob
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 0:27:37 GMT
Stats again; as someone once said "there's lies, damn lies and statistics".
There's a much bigger picture than what appears in the record books; it surprises me that you think Senna was better than Schumacher Rob, on paper, Ayrton couldn't hold a candle to Michael.
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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 0:31:51 GMT
Try asking Norbold, his favourite is a bloke who he never saw, and didn't score that highly on the WC front, but he's still revered by long term speedway fans. But, then again, Tom Farndon, whom I believe norbold favours, is almost speedway's equivalent of Duncan Edwards - didn't Farndon hold just about every track record in the country at the time of his death?
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Post by Genghis on Jul 8, 2007 0:34:53 GMT
Stats again; as someone once said "there's lies, damn lies and statistics". There's a much bigger picture than what appears in the record books; it surprises me that you think Senna was better than Schumacher Rob, on paper, Ayrton couldn't hold a candle to Michael. DonsKing, I use stats as a back-up, but I use my judgement ahead of that, which is why I consider Senna to be the best F1 driver of all-time. And Nielsen is the rider I think is the best Speedway rider of all-time - he was the COMPLETE package. Look at what I posted on the Nielsen thread, as to why I think this. The Niemi incident at Ipswich is actually the main reason I consider Nielsen to be the best. The skill level to do what Nielsen did there is phenomenal - to just stop a bike dead to avoid a nasty accident - it was absolutely amazing. All the best Rob
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