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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 7:54:32 GMT
Having a chat with Berwick's illustrious promoter Senior Petero El Waitero; he believes that the squad system employed in Poland would greatly benefit the UK leagues next year.
To me it makes a lot of sense.
One immediate benefit that becomes apparent to me is that it could lead to teams being more competitive away from home, and drop the need for riders being hit with 'flu when visiting tracks they are not too keen on.
Or maybe I am talking shite.
What does everyone thing?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 8:15:46 GMT
Having a chat with Berwick's illustrious promoter Senior Petero El Waitero; he believes that the squad system employed in Poland would greatly benefit the UK leagues next year. Is that Poland's system or given PW's fondness for our eastern European cousins just the actual squads employed in Poland? I think squads need to be looked at seriously but, and its a big but, it has to be thought through properly with the impact on all involved in the sport (promoters, riders, sponsors etc) considered before any new system is introduced Given the UK's haphazard approach to race nights and fixture scheduling in general its difficult to see how a squad system involving swapping riders with 'overseas' commitments would work as I would guess if one member of the squad was missing its likely that a comparable squad member would also be missing (unless we really do get the two clubs only rule implemented across speedway next season in which case its easier to see how a berth could be split between riders in the Polish and Swedish leagues) and that still doesnt answer the all important question about where the money is coming from to secure the services of a 'squad' At the lower end of teams I think squads are a perfectly sensible option with greater use of doubling up giving greater flexability in rider choice and ensuring that lower order riders are getting the bulk of their earnings from the being a 'bigger fish' in the league below As an aside do the Polish and Swedish leagues operate a points limit on squads / 1-7 tracked or some other system?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 9:33:50 GMT
Having a chat with Berwick's illustrious promoter Senior Petero El Waitero; he believes that the squad system employed in Poland would greatly benefit the UK leagues next year. Is that Poland's system or given PW's fondness for our eastern European cousins just the actual squads employed in Poland? I think squads need to be looked at seriously but, and its a big but, it has to be thought through properly with the impact on all involved in the sport (promoters, riders, sponsors etc) considered before any new system is introduced Given the UK's haphazard approach to race nights and fixture scheduling in general its difficult to see how a squad system involving swapping riders with 'overseas' commitments would work as I would guess if one member of the squad was missing its likely that a comparable squad member would also be missing (unless we really do get the two clubs only rule implemented across speedway next season in which case its easier to see how a berth could be split between riders in the Polish and Swedish leagues) and that still doesnt answer the all important question about where the money is coming from to secure the services of a 'squad' At the lower end of teams I think squads are a perfectly sensible option with greater use of doubling up giving greater flexability in rider choice and ensuring that lower order riders are getting the bulk of their earnings from the being a 'bigger fish' in the league below As an aside do the Polish and Swedish leagues operate a points limit on squads / 1-7 tracked or some other system? Interesting points; there is certainly the obvious Polish interest for Berwick, although that was not metioned in our conversation. What was mentioned is that there would be more need for good management - e.g. choosing the strongest squad with respect to track and opposition. Riders would only be paid points money when scoring - as per - but I suppose it would increas signing fees/loan fees. What I was not sure about was if it would solve the fixture clashes. You seem to think this may be a problem, and I can see why from your reasons. So is it the answer? I really don't know. Any other views on this? Sub, you must have a few suggestions?
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Post by admin on Sept 6, 2007 9:41:33 GMT
There's an awful lot of misinformation about the system they operate in Poland. Yes, the clubs sign a squad of riders, but by and large, barring injuries and such like, there aren't too many team changes from week to week.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 9:44:54 GMT
I've advocated some kind of squad system for a while now. Not sure what the Polish system is to be honest but I'd go for a points limit being set and a set number of riders allowed in a clubs squad and any combination of them can ride on any given day, providing the points limit is adhered to. EL squads obviously made up from EL,PL and CL if necessary with no restrictions on the make up of the squad i.e. they can have as many GP riders signed up as they like but can only use them within the points limit each match. If for example Holta is in a squad and will only commit to 3 matches, the club would have to balance the risk of injuries meaning having to run well below the points limit in matches he won't ride in should another of the high average riders be injured/unavailable. PL squads made up from PL, CL and lower averaged EL riders. CL, I'm really not knowledgeable enough about nowadays to comment, but if it's no longer to be simply a training/feeder league, then CL and lower averaged PL riders in their squad. No guests allowed, no r/r allowed. No additions to squads except in extreme circumstances and additions having to be less than 6 pt averages to avoid GP riders coming in mid season and then only when authorised by a completely independent committee. ie. PL on EL matters and vice versa. I'm sure someone will say that it may restrict the earning capacity of riders not getting guaranteed regular rides but is anyone guaranteed a job anywhere these days? Something has to be done. Lower EL, Pl and CL riders allowed to sign for teams in 2 leagues (3 for CL riders) subject to agreement between the clubs concerned. I'm sure TonyM and the other speedway philosophers will find many holes in my theory but I don't care cos the BSPA will never go for it anyway
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Post by admin on Sept 6, 2007 9:52:03 GMT
I've advocated some kind of squad system for a while now. Not sure what the Polish system is to be honest but I'd go for a points limit being set and a set number of riders allowed in a clubs squad and any combination of them can ride on any given day, providing the points limit is adhered to. The Polish system is pretty much a free-for-all, but with one or two provisos. For example, a club can sign as many GPers as they want, but only two are allowed in a given team at a meeting. And then the reserve positions in the UK are for juniors in Poland (aged 21 and under): one of these positions must be filled by a Polish rider. That's where you get most of the team changes. For example, Wroclaw have Holder, Klindt and Sitera signed as juniors and rotate them alongside a Polish junior. Holder seems the favoured option these days, but when the Isle of Wight race on a Sunday he's not available, so they go with Klindt or Sitera.
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Post by schumi on Sept 6, 2007 10:01:04 GMT
And they don't have to have a minimum number of rides.
Best person to ask is Wibblemuis, if he's around. I used to hate the idea of squads but he managed to convince me with his knowledge and understanding.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 11:49:20 GMT
The Polish system is pretty much a free-for-all, but with one or two provisos. For example, a club can sign as many GPers as they want, but only two are allowed in a given team at a meeting. And then the reserve positions in the UK are for juniors in Poland (aged 21 and under): one of these positions must be filled by a Polish rider. That's where you get most of the team changes. For example, Wroclaw have Holder, Klindt and Sitera signed as juniors and rotate them alongside a Polish junior. Holder seems the favoured option these days, but when the Isle of Wight race on a Sunday he's not available, so they go with Klindt or Sitera. Is there an overall team average limit or a limit to the squad? With the criteria for reserves just u21 with 1 Polish irrespective of performance, what average (if that is relevant) do riders then progress into the main body of the team? Assume from what you have posted speedway in Poland operates in the way most UK sports operate with riders staying with teams on a year by year basis with some movement between clubs with earnings being the 'team equalisation' method (better teams cant afford to hang on to all their riders, some of whom could command more elsewhere)
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Post by admin on Sept 6, 2007 12:28:37 GMT
Is there an overall team average limit or a limit to the squad? With the criteria for reserves just u21 with 1 Polish irrespective of performance, what average (if that is relevant) do riders then progress into the main body of the team? Assume from what you have posted speedway in Poland operates in the way most UK sports operate with riders staying with teams on a year by year basis with some movement between clubs with earnings being the 'team equalisation' method (better teams cant afford to hang on to all their riders, some of whom could command more elsewhere) At the minute there is no average limit for team or squad in Poland - as I said, it's pretty much a free-for-all, although with generally just one fixture per week, riders are going to go where they're likely to get a ride. A rider moves into the main body of the team when he no longer qualifies to be a Junior, or as and when the team manager deems it necessary to place him into the team proper. Averages play no part in determining this - Karol Zabik has a hefty average at Torun, but remains a Junior within the team. This is, of course, very beneficial to the team, since with no minimum rides criteria, Zabik is free to replace other riders up to a miximum number of rides - six, I think. It has to be said, however, that the programmed Junior rides are sacrosanct - a Junior can't be replaced, except by the other Junior. Rider movement seems to be facilitated by opportunity as well as the financial consideration you raise - Hampel left Wroclaw last season largely because Wroclaw would have had three GPers (Andersen, Crump and Hampel) and Hampel's opportunities would be restricted at the club. I seldom see any mention of transfer fees in Poland, so I assume once a rider has fulfilled his contractual obligations he becomes a free agent, although longer term contracts are in place in Poland and fees may be applicable if a rider moves while under contract to a club.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 15:40:47 GMT
As an aside do the Polish and Swedish leagues operate a points limit on squads / 1-7 tracked or some other system? Although I'm not at all opposed to squad systems, you've inadvertently raised a fundamental issue. Those who talk about them don't really know how they'd be practically implemented. Anyway, to answer your question, there is a points limit in operation in Sweden (and Denmark). Riders have two averages - the so-called team average which is their average from the start of the season and which doesn't change, and the current average which is updated after every match and used for determining the heat-leaders and reserves. Teams may pick any seven riders up to the points limit, using those riders team average. The No.8 if nominated, has to (I think) have a lower average than the rider of these seven with the lowest average. These seven (or eight) riders must then line-up in accordance with their current averages (which are actually calculated using a complex formula that combines their starting average with their real average - you did ask! ) Obviously you need to used fixed averages for the points limit as otherwise rider averages might increase during the season, which would theoretically mean the side would have to be weakened as the season went on. Conversely, some riders riding below their real average get lumbered with their higher starting average. All for well if the season is relatively short (at 18 matches over 4 months), but quite another thing if one is riding 36 or more matches over nearly 8 months. In Poland, there is no points limit, although teams do have to pick a certain number of U21 riders. In reality, most squads are made-up of U21 riders on training contracts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 15:42:20 GMT
I seldom see any mention of transfer fees in Poland, so I assume once a rider has fulfilled his contractual obligations he becomes a free agent, although longer term contracts are in place in Poland and fees may be applicable if a rider moves while under contract to a club. I think there (or at least were) transfer fees, but only for Polish riders. I don't believe foreign riders came under the system.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 19:52:42 GMT
I seldom see any mention of transfer fees in Poland, so I assume once a rider has fulfilled his contractual obligations he becomes a free agent, although longer term contracts are in place in Poland and fees may be applicable if a rider moves while under contract to a club. I think there (or at least were) transfer fees, but only for Polish riders. I don't believe foreign riders came under the system. So home grown riders seem to be on some sort of asset / long term contract basis for which the parent club is compensated if he decides to move, whilst foreign riders are on shorter contracts and are then able to move if they so wish with no complaint from their former club who we can assume didnt want to re-engage them for the following season (either based on form, better alternatives or for financial reasons). All seems to make so much sense compared to the endless signing of assets and loan fees we have in the UK
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 19:59:06 GMT
Nice idea in theory , but cant see it working over here . I can just see Alan Dick at Glasgow wincing at the thought of having to sign at least ten riders . What about the riders that are not in the team - how do they get paid . What promoter is going to be happy at paying some sort of retainer fee for a rider not racing too many meetings . Plus when i got to the Messiahdome every Sunday i want to see the main man himself - not some poor imitation of a squad rider .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2007 21:10:53 GMT
So home grown riders seem to be on some sort of asset / long term contract basis for which the parent club is compensated if he decides to move I think it works much the same in Poland as in Britain, just not for foreign riders. I think even when Polish riders are out-of-contract, they're still subject to transfer fees I'm fundamentally against transfer fees for riders, except perhaps for young riders 'under development', and perhaps for a limited time after become established. I think it's completely wrong for teams to be able to claim transfer or loan fees, years after a rider was originally signed, and especially so for those riders who were not actually 'developed' by the team.
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Post by admin on Sept 6, 2007 21:32:39 GMT
I think it works much the same in Poland as in Britain, just not for foreign riders. I think even when Polish riders are out-of-contract, they're still subject to transfer fees I think that is subject to an age criteria - once a rider is over a certain age a transfer fee is no longer applicable. I think any rider in Poland not signed up by a certain date has to be circulated to all clubs - a certain Tomasz Gollob had not signed and was circulated as a "free transfer" a couple of years ago. But, in the end, he re-signed for Tarnow. But I do believe a transfer fee was paid by Leszno for Jaroslaw Hampel.
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