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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 11:28:39 GMT
Murderer yes, bighead yes( but with the talent to back it up ), also still the best English rider of the last 26 years by a country mile, and that includes Havvy and Loram. So what did Carter win then. One World Pairs and two British Finals. Oh, and two BLRCs. That's about it in terms of major competitions. Not exactly a list benefftting the "best English English rider of the last 26 years by a country mile" - he never did back up his big statements with titles. Peter Collins was "past it"by the 80s according to Carter - and yet during that time PC won a further four FIM Gold Medals (to take his total tally to 10), while Carter won one.... yes one!!! Since then, Gary Havelock and Mark Loram have both won the World Championship. Remind me when Carter did that. He always went to pieces when the pressure was really on. To add another to the list of recent great Brits, the late, great Simon Wigg won six FIM Gold Medals. Wiggy was the king of the Longtrack scene, as that was his first love, and his Speedway record (numerous succeses at both inidividual and team level) also bests that of Carter. Carter was a big head. He was very talented, but if only he had been half as good as he thought he was. I remember "England's No. 1" coming to a test match at Oxford in 1985. He scored one point. All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 7, 2007 11:35:19 GMT
Since then, Gary Havelock and Mark Loram have both won the World Championship. Remind me when Carter did that. He always went to pieces when the pressure was really on. All the best Rob But isn't 1992 one of those you claim should really have been Nielsen's? You can't have it both ways, young Peasley. And we shouldn't forget that Loram's world title was won without winning a GP during that season.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 11:41:01 GMT
Since then, Gary Havelock and Mark Loram have both won the World Championship. Remind me when Carter did that. He always went to pieces when the pressure was really on. All the best Rob But isn't 1992 one of those you claim should really have been Nielsen's? You can't have it both ways, young Peasley. And we shouldn't forget that Loram's world title was won without winning a GP during that season. Sub, Mark Loram did two Grand Prix rounds - one in 1997 and one in 1999. Both of which are bigger titles than anything Carter ever won. As for 1992, no that was the one year Hans wasn't so hot. He had switched engines and it took him time to adjust to the Jawa. The best rider that year was actually Per Jonsson, but fair play to Havvy who was the best man on the day, which is what counted back then. And if you look at what Gary Havelock achieved that year, he won more World Championship rounds than Kenny Carter did in his whole carreer! All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 7, 2007 11:45:46 GMT
Sub, Mark Loram did two Grand Prix rounds - one in 1997 and one in 1999. Both of which are bigger titles than anything Carter ever won. All the best Rob But Loram's world championship came in 2000, when he didn't win a single round. For me, that will always cast doubts over the legitimacy of his title. If that upsets the chauvinists, I couldn't care. So far the only GP world champion not to win a GP during the season he claimed the crown. And I'd remind you that around the time Carter was winning his British titles, the claim was that the British Final was a harder meeting to win than the world final. That was chauvinistic nonsense, but it was the claim.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 11:50:16 GMT
Sub, Mark Loram did two Grand Prix rounds - one in 1997 and one in 1999. Both of which are bigger titles than anything Carter ever won. All the best Rob But Loram's world championship came in 2000, when he didn't win a single round. For me, that will always cast doubts over the legitimacy of his title. If that upsets the chauvinists, I couldn't care. So far the only GP world champion not to win a GP during the season he claimed the crown. Sub, The World Champion is, since 1995, the man who perfroms best over the whole GP series. This is what Mark Loram was in 2000. Everyone else had at least one bad round - he did not. How about Nicki Pedersen? He was World Champion in 2003, and yet both Crump and Sullivan more rounds that year. Does that mean, in your eyes, Nicki was not a legitimate champion? All the best Rob
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 11:57:12 GMT
And I'd remind you that around the time Carter was winning his British titles, the claim was that the British Final was a harder meeting to win than the world final. That was chauvinistic nonsense, but it was the claim. Sub, I think you've got your meetings confused, there, old chap. It was the BLRC that was claimed to be harder to win than the World Final. All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 7, 2007 11:57:59 GMT
How about Nicki Pedersen? He was World Champion in 2003, and yet both Crump and Sullivan more rounds that year. Does that mean, in your eyes, Nicki was not a legimate champion? All the best Rob But Nicki P did, at least, manage to win a GP in 2003, Loram didn't in 2000.
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Post by admin on Jul 7, 2007 11:59:37 GMT
Sub, I think you've got your meetings confused, there, old chap. It was the BLRC that was claimed to be harder to win than the World Final. All the best Rob I rather think they both were. And, anyway, as you've shown, Carter won a BLRC. In fact, wasn't he BLRC during one of the years Penhall was world champion?
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 12:27:13 GMT
I rather think they both were. And, anyway, as you've shown, Carter won a BLRC. In fact, wasn't he BLRC during one of the years Penhall was world champion? Carter did win the BLRC twice - in 1981 and 1982. Penhall was in the 1981 event. However, his list of titles are hardly what you would expect from a rider who has been described as "best English English rider of the last 26 years by a country mile". Anyone who believes that statment is living in cloud cuckooland, when the likes of Mark Loram, Simon Wigg, Gary Havelock and even Kelvin Tatum have had more successful careers than Carter. By winning the British GP last weekend, Chris Harris is already ahead of Carter, who never won a single international round of the World Championship. All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 7, 2007 12:41:04 GMT
Oh dear, young Peasley, you were making a reasonable case and then you mentioned Kelvin Tatum MBE. Come on young fellow, Tatum wasn't in the same league as Carter. I'd rate Carter as being the last truly great British rider. And I'd place Chris Louis above either Havelock or Loram.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 7, 2007 12:49:39 GMT
Oh dear, young Peasley, you were making a reasonable case and then you mentioned Kelvin Tatum MBE. Come on young fellow, Tatum wasn't in the same league as Carter. I'd rate Carter as being the last truly great British rider. And I'd place Chris Louis above either Havelock or Loram. Sub, By the way I mentioned "even Kelvin Tatum", it should alerted that I was comparing their careers statistically. And Tatum, with 4 FIM Gold Medals and also a third place in the 1986 World Final DOES have a more impressive record than Carter. Do I think Tatum was better than Carter? No. But Mark Loram and Simon Wigg - yes they were. And Havvy, I would say he's on a par with Carter, but he did have a year in 1992 which bettered any year that Carter had. My list of the British riders since Lee won the 1980 World Final would be: 1. Simon Wigg 2. Mark Loram 3= Gary Havelock 3= Kenny Carter 5. Chris Harris But the bloke in fifth has the potential to go past the other four All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 14:04:30 GMT
The Geoffrey Boycott of Speedway The difference is that Geoffrey Boycott was, in his own words, "very, very good at crick-it". Certainly not entertaining, but what would England give for a batsman who can bat for all five days of a test match these days?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 22:04:48 GMT
If you asked a team manager to pick a rider to lead his club from the ones you have listed Rob , i am sure 1st pick would be Carter, you will come back with what team medals did he win no doubt, but that is down to the other 6.
Yes the BLRC was a much harder meeting to win than any of Lorams GP wins, and no 2nd chances of finishing in the 1st 2 in 4 heats to go through. Carter was the last English rider to top the averages +11pts,and regulary beat Penhall, Nielsen and Gundersen, hold the Golden Helmet etc.
On his day the other Brits couldn't hold a candle to him. He was the author of his own downfall, but still the best since PC and Lee.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 22:12:10 GMT
To be honest, and to my eternal shame, I actually forgot about Simon Wigg when discussing English riders better than Carter in the last 26 years. I would certainly rate Simon ahead of Kenny. I would still not rate Simon ahead of Gary, however. Simon was a phenomenal grasstrack and longtrack rider, but he always fell short of Gary in pure speedway talent, if you ask me!
As well as winning the 1992 World title, Gary was also just 2 points off of winning it the following year. Then, in 1996 he was starting to settle into the GP series and beginning to look like a serious contender again when he broke his back....and that was the last we ever saw of the real Gary Havelock.
I'm confident that Gary would certainly have seen more Individual medals in his career, if not golds, without that injury. Still, that's all ifs and buts....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 22:32:57 GMT
To be honest, and to my eternal shame, I actually forgot about Simon Wigg when discussing English riders better than Carter in the last 26 years. I would certainly rate Simon ahead of Kenny. I would still not rate Simon ahead of Gary, however. Simon was a phenomenal grasstrack and longtrack rider, but he always fell short of Gary in pure speedway talent, if you ask me! As well as winning the 1992 World title, Gary was also just 2 points off of winning it the following year. Then, in 1996 he was starting to settle into the GP series and beginning to look like a serious contender again when he broke his back....and that was the last we ever saw of the real Gary Havelock. I'm confident that Gary would certainly have seen more Individual medals in his career, if not golds, without that injury. Still, that's all ifs and buts.... Carter put Wigg in the shade with only one good leg at Oxford (wiggs own track) and at Brandon in the British Final , say no more.
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