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Post by Genghis on Jul 5, 2007 20:12:29 GMT
ok so i didn't emphasise a word ... murdering your family? Steve, Got yer now. Murder is still murder though. Can't understand what drove Carter or others like him - what kind of person goes and deliberately ends the life of another? If Kenny Carter still loved Pam Carter, then that was a fucking strange way of showing it. It's impossible to understand Carter's actions. It was premeditated murder... he'd hidden his car in the garage and was waiting for her with a shotgun. What a bastard. Hope he rots in hell. All the best Rob
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Post by stevehone on Jul 5, 2007 20:17:53 GMT
well i liked him, a lot.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 5, 2007 20:24:12 GMT
Steve, I never talked to Kenny Carter, I was too young at the time, I think I've got his autograph on an England v Denmark test match from Oxford. No doubt he could be nice in person, although at the same time they seem to be plenty who he rubbed up the wrong way. And no doubt, there were some people who thought Harold Shipman or Adolf Hitler were nice in person. Ultimately Carter was a murderer, and that it was he will be remembered as. All the best Rob
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Post by stevehone on Jul 5, 2007 20:29:40 GMT
Steve, I never talked to Kenny Carter, I was too young at the time, I think I've got his autograph on an England v Denmark test match from Oxford. No doubt he could be nice in person, although at the same time they seem to be plenty who he rubbed up the wrong way. And no doubt, there were some people who thought Harold Shipman or Adolf Hitler were nice in person. Ultimately Carter was a murderer, and that it was he will be remembered as. All the best Rob maybe so, but if you read the Phil Pratt bit, that's how and when i saw him
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Post by Genghis on Jul 5, 2007 20:44:18 GMT
maybe so, but if you read the Phil Pratt bit, that's how and when i saw him Steve, You know, we could have never had this conversation on the BSF But it's weird enough for this forum... that someone who can appear as a good bloke to some people ends up as a murderer. I guess even a murderer has a best mate. Must be deeply shocking for them when they discover what the guy they drink with, discuss things with, is capable of. All the best Rob
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Post by admin on Jul 5, 2007 20:50:07 GMT
And, as ever, Kenny Carter arouses strong emotions. Young Peasley stands on one side, while young Hone, who knew Carter somewhat and saw the man behind the facade, stands on the other side. Carter was his own worst enemy: in public brash, slightly arrogant and outspoken. Clearly, in private, away from the track he was a warm engaging personality. So few people seem to have seen that side of him. I don't think anyone seeks to excuse the tragic events of 1986, just some choose to focus on the positive aspects of a life and others the negative end to that life.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 5, 2007 21:06:00 GMT
Sub, I think "slightly arrogant" is somewhat of an understatement. He came across as a VERY arrogant, self-centred, big-head. The Geoffrey Boycott of Speedway - his public persona certainly left most thinking - what a toss-pot! It wasn't just the final act of his life, there was also the public assault on a hugely popular PC, his antics at the 1984 British Final which helped eliminate most of the leading Brits from the competition, the hoo-hah he created at the 1981 Overseas Final alledging Penhall of trying to deliberate hurt him when clearly the two bikes had locked together and it was a complete accident (it was this which initially set me against Carter - at the age of 8!!). The bloke came across as a compete berk - but then proved he was something far worse. All the best Rob
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Post by stevehone on Jul 6, 2007 6:45:28 GMT
but then surely the same can be said about Bruce Penhall if you put it like that ...
he had everything, he was at a club that was going to win things again, he had won the world title for a second year running, he was the blue eyed boy, the pin-up for so many fans around the world, but what did he do ... he just ended it, he retired there and then, on the podium. yes i was there in LA to see it, and trust me, it was a shock.
Cradley suffered because it screwed the rest of their season, the sport suffered because this publicity drawcard that existed was no longer, and all the fans across the world suffered because he wasn't there to follow any more. and you know what, how glad was i when he fucked it all up.
so, if you look at a different perspective, Penhall did very serious damage to the sport as a whole, not just one or two families, this went across the world. did speedway ever recover?
funny how Penhall got out when drugs testing was becoming more prominent too .....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 9:00:10 GMT
Hey genghis you were very young to have that opinion of Carter, were you swayed by those around you by any chance?
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Post by Genghis on Jul 6, 2007 14:56:14 GMT
but then surely the same can be said about Bruce Penhall if you put it like that ... he had everything, he was at a club that was going to win things again, he had won the world title for a second year running, he was the blue eyed boy, the pin-up for so many fans around the world, but what did he do ... he just ended it, he retired there and then, on the podium. yes i was there in LA to see it, and trust me, it was a shock. Cradley suffered because it screwed the rest of their season, the sport suffered because this publicity drawcard that existed was no longer, and all the fans across the world suffered because he wasn't there to follow any more. and you know what, how glad was i when he fucked it all up. so, if you look at a different perspective, Penhall did very serious damage to the sport as a whole, not just one or two families, this went across the world. did speedway ever recover? funny how Penhall got out when drugs testing was becoming more prominent too ..... Steve, I don't think Penhall retiring is quite the same as Carter murdering his wife Yes, it was Penhall's retirement was a shock, but life moves on and people get new heroes, in my case it was Dennis Sigalos and then Hans Nielsen. But no-one died because Bruce Penhall retired, which is something that was his right to do, especially after his disgraceful treatment from the British fans at White City. I was there, and even the Cradley fans were booing him, so don't give me all that "Cradley had been good to Bruce" crap!! That's the day the British fans lost Bruce Penhall. Bunch of hypocrites - no-one batted an eyelid when Dave Jessup and Larry Ross did something similar the previous year at the Overseas Final (I was at that one too!), to keep Michael Lee and Ivan Mauger in the championship chase. All the best Rob
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Post by Genghis on Jul 6, 2007 15:03:19 GMT
Hey genghis you were very young to have that opinion of Carter, were you swayed by those around you by any chance? Trees, Not really, in fact my dad and cousin were both Kenny Carter fans and didn't like Bruce Penhall. I've had constant arguments with my dad over the years over the Penhall / Carter clash in the 1982 World Final. I think it's a common mistake to think that kids can't have opinions, I think I had stronger opinions when I was 8/12 years old, than I do know. Everything is very black and white at that age, though, I just knew I didn't like Kenny Carter, whereas know I'm interested in reading the book and finding out the background behind the rider I loved to hate as a child. All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 16:40:27 GMT
I would hazard a guess that the sort of person who deliberately goes out to end the life of another is highly likely to be mentally and emotionally unstable especially with Kenny's family history. I can't wait to read the book (due to be delivered to me on July 9th) and will reserve judgement until then.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2007 19:48:34 GMT
Genghis, what crime did he commit at the British Final in 1984, voting to ride with a broken leg, when PC and Mort just back from winning the world pairs final (minus their best bikes) obviously wanted it called off. Ok he had won his 1st ride, but as he said he could easily be last in his next one, just as he had done previously in his semi-final at Oxford. He wanted to ride no crime there or was he in charge of the BSPA and Ref of that meeting. As for the Overseas final Penhall was clearly to blame for bringing them both down, imagine that the other way round, Carter would have been the anti christ. Penhall was too blatent with his lack of effort in the infamous heat at White City, he misjudged the British fans, could of slid off or broke the tapes etc, would still have been obvious tho i suppose. Talking of selfishness, leaving Cradley in the shit, because HOLLYWOOD CAN'T WAIT FOR ME! i,m going to be a star, oh my god! "I feel bad about Cradley but i have to take this chance", what Bollocks. Correct me if i am wrong but is the British Final not an individual event, so who cares if one of your main rivals goes out. Yes he ending up killing the woman he loved, and that is the ultimate contradiction, but if we knew what drove him to it then we could have maybe prevented it. Murderer yes, bighead yes( but with the talent to back it up ), also still the best English rider of the last 26 years by a country mile, and that includes Havvy and Loram. Rant over
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 1:32:12 GMT
but then surely the same can be said about Bruce Penhall if you put it like that ... he had everything, he was at a club that was going to win things again, he had won the world title for a second year running, he was the blue eyed boy, the pin-up for so many fans around the world, but what did he do ... he just ended it, he retired there and then, on the podium. yes i was there in LA to see it, and trust me, it was a shock. How much of a shock could it really have been? He had already publicly stated that he was likely to take up other offers after the World Final! As far as I understand and remember it, Bruce was a supremely talented and gifted individual, but he had achieved his goals in the sport. He wanted more from life than just another few title's in the same sport. Things probably didn't work out how he hoped, but I certainly wouldn't put him down for having greater ambitions. As ghengis already pointed out, I really can't believe that you can even put Bruce's actions in the same sentence as Kenny's, let alone implying that Bruce's were a greater attrocity. Bruce quit a job. Kenny murdered someone and then took his own life....The two are not even remotely comparable! Also just occurred to me. Surely by taking his own life and removing himself from the speedway World, Carter did just as much damage as Mr Penhall....unless you think that Kenny's loss had a lesser impact on the sport This also strikes me as an exceptionally low blow! The guy had reached the peak of the profession. He had an offer from Hollywood that had the potential to give him a leg up to a much higher level of stardom. Do you honestly believe that he walked away from the sport purely because they started drug testing?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2007 1:38:07 GMT
..... also still the best English rider of the last 26 years by a country mile, and that includes Havvy and Loram. Not convinced to be honest. I agree that Kenny had a great deal of talent, and possibly more importantly a great deal of desire and determination, but the simple fact is that he failed to deliver when it counted most. Gary Havelock is, in my mind, undoubtedly the best rider England has produced since Mike Lee.
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