Senna vs Schumacher - you decide.

[schumi]

donsking said:

despite the fact that both men were dead before they even left their cars.

Well that's one of the unanswered questions - when did Senna actually die? I thought he was still breathing when they pulled him from the car. Didn't Charlie do a trachiotomy or something, and didn't I read a report about him saying he sensed when his (Senna's) soul left his body?

[jimblanchard]

Without trying to sound morbid Schumi, I believe that his head injuries were so severe that it was more or less accepted that there was little that could be done for him and he was gone before the car had come to a standstill.

I can remember Murray Walker more or less alluding to this during his live commentary and when the cameras withdrew from close ups of the scene, and though unconfirmed of course there was a stark realisation that there was no hope.

A very sad day indeed, and one for me personally, I shall never forget.

[donsking]

schumi said:

donsking said:

despite the fact that both men were dead before they even left their cars.

Well that's one of the unanswered questions - when did Senna actually die? I thought he was still breathing when they pulled him from the car. Didn't Charlie do a trachiotomy or something, and didn't I read a report about him saying he sensed when his (Senna's) soul left his body?

Not Charlie, but Sid; Charlie Whiting is the FIA race director and safety delegate for F1 (unless that's changed in the last couple of years), Professor Sid Watkins is the main medical man.

Prof Sid did attend Ayrton, supervised his removal from the car, and attempted some kind of revival, but as a Professor of Neurological Surgery (and a very close friend of Senna's) he knew anything he did was futile; I haven't yet read it, but I believe he admitted as much in his book.

My memory of the day was that I was at a family BBQ; the menfolk were watching the live coverage, but I was in the kitchen at the time of the accident (no doubt cracking open another bottle!) but then the shout went up that Senna had crashed.

Wandering back into the room where the telly was, Senna was lying beside the car, perfectly still, laid out like a corpse in a mortuary, with medics in attendance but not appearing to be doing much; I still remember looking at the screen and cutting through the silence with the cold statement "He's dead".

Sadly, I was right, and the best racing driver I ever had the privilege to watch, and get to know (albeit in a small way) was gone.

Come to think of it Schumi, I can understand the loss you feel about Michael; I'd spent a while trying to come to terms with the idea that the car was beginning to get close to the driver in terms of it's importance, and then, in that moment, I realised the greatest exploiter of a car I had ever witnessed, first hand, was gone, and that we would probably never see his like again.

Since then I've never been so enthusiastic about the sport, despite the paradox that I was never a huge fan of Senna as a person.

Michael Schumacher mastered a different car and, some would say, a different sport, but that's why I like Lewis Hamilton so much; he shows flashes of Schumacher's ideas of media savvy and maturity on the track, but then there's just a touch of Senna about the way he forces a mistake from someone else, or does just enough to stay in front, or makes a move that no-one else would even try.

I try not to have any romance about the past, it's a dangerous route to go down; romance can't play any part in comparing the old and the new, there are too many other factors involved, but there's something about a combination of natural talent and drive, and years of grooming that make me think Hamilton can do it.

Ramblings over, time for bed; said a tomato with a spring up his arse! ;D

[schumi]

donsking said:

Come to think of it Schumi, I can understand the loss you feel about Michael;

Thank you.
And thank you again for a lovely perspective which I found incredibly moving.

[Genghis]

Schumi,

I've finally got around to registering. Will be constructing my full reply to this in the next few days - it's gonna be long - and am trying to be as objective as possible, without letting my anti-Schumacher bias show too much.

All the best
Rob

[schumi]

I know you said it's going to be long Rob, but I hope not as long as it's taken you to post it.

[jimblanchard]

Just bare this in mind Rob - that it appears that the bounder stole Heinz Haralds girl friend. I mean just how low can you stoop.. ;D

(I know I am going to get a a ban on here now.... Sorry Shumi... )

[Genghis]

schumi said:

I know you said it's going to be long Rob, but I hope not as long as it's taken you to post it.

Schumi,

I've got a bit sidetracked at the mo. Anyway, it builds up the anticpation...

All the best
Rob

[Deleted]

schumi said:

Without a doubt two of the best racing drivers of all time, it’s been said that it’s impossible to compare Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna. Well, I subscribe to the theory that everything is possible, so here I am, giving the facts and hoping they speak for themselves.

Let’s look at the stats:
Pole positions – Schumacher 68, Senna 65.
Race wins – Schumacher 91, Senna 41.
Podium finishes – Schumacher 154, Senna 80.
Fastest laps – Schumacher 76, Senna 19.
World championships – Schumacher 7, Senna 3.

There you go – much more workable. So, looking at that Senna was undoubtedly superior when it came to sticking his car on pole position, whilst Schumacher seems to have the upper hand in every other department. But how much of that is driver skill and how much is down to the car? Theoretically the “best” car should be the one that won the constructors championship.

So going on that Senna was in the “best” car in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 (McLaren) and 1994 (Williams), making that 45.45% of his career being in the superior car.

*For these purposes I am not counting the one race he had for Jordan in 1991, although his debut qualifying session where he stuck the car on pole is what impressed enough to give him his first drive for Benetton in the following race.

So overall, Schumacher had the better car for less of his career than Senna, suggesting he may have had the edge in terms of driving ability.

Any thoughts are more than welcome, and thanks for listening.

First of all he qualified the Jordan in 7th position.

Sennas win stats are hamperred by the fact that he was racing against other great drivers and WDC's... Prost, Piquet, Mansell etc.

More to the point he was also team mates with Prost, something that MS would never have agreed to. I personally do not feel you can count the Williams 94 car as the best on the grid as it was awfully bad to drive as Williams suffered the most when tc lc auto suspension was removed from the car.

MS career has also coincided with a golden period of reliability in cars and I believe this will only continue to improve.

As for personal opinion, I believe Senna was the better driver, MS bought a whole new level of professionalism to the sport.

[Deleted]

imo Senna was all but dead on track however Sid Watkins obviously tried to do his best, I do think that they were aware of italian law and needed to get him away from the circuit asap.

The tv footage was on you tube a while back and I just had to watch it again it was however not pleasant and i had forgotten just how much blood there was at the scene.

[Genghis]

Schumi - bugger, I never did get to posting my full findings onto this thread.

But tell me - when did Schumacher ever produce such a great drive as Senna did at Suzuka in '88 (in fact, just contrast the fashion in which Senna and Schumacher took their first titles - Senna with one of the all-time great drives and Schumacher by damaging his car and then bundling his title rival off the track!!), or a first lap and then a race of pure tactical genius as Donnington in '93.

Scumacher is the second best driver I've ever seen, but Senna is first by a street.

[schumi]

genghis said:

Schumi - bugger, I never did get to posting my full findings onto this thread.

That's a shame.

[admin]

Senna was infinitely superior to Schumacher and he never stooped so low as to drive for Ferrari.

[Genghis]

schumi said:

genghis said:

Schumi - bugger, I never did get to posting my full findings onto this thread.

That's a shame.

Schumi,

Who knows - I might get around to it soon.

In the meantime, here's my list of the best 10 Grand Prix victories I've ever seen:

1. Senna, Donnington, 1993
2. Senna, Japan, 1988
3. Mansell, Silverstone, 1987
4. Schumacher, Spain, 1996
5. Senna, Hungary, 1991
6. Raikkonen, Japan, 2005
7. Mansell, Hungary, 1989
8. Senna, Spa, 1989
9. Schumacher, Spa, 1997
10. Barichello, Silverstone, 2003

[Genghis]

admin said:

Senna was infinitely superior to Schumacher and he never stooped so low as to drive for Ferrari.

Bloody hell - me and Sub agree 100% on something - it MUST be true!!