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Post by schumi on May 15, 2007 20:04:34 GMT
Without a doubt two of the best racing drivers of all time, it’s been said that it’s impossible to compare Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna. Well, I subscribe to the theory that everything is possible, so here I am, giving the facts and hoping they speak for themselves.
Let’s look at the stats: Pole positions – Schumacher 68, Senna 65. Race wins – Schumacher 91, Senna 41. Podium finishes – Schumacher 154, Senna 80. Fastest laps – Schumacher 76, Senna 19. World championships – Schumacher 7, Senna 3.
That’s unfair, I hear you cry, Schumacher had a longer career and Senna’s was sadly cut short. He would have gone on to win many, many more races and would surely have overshadowed Schumacher’s achievements.
Possibly so, who’s to say? But I’m dealing with cold, hard facts. So, to even up the score we have to look at percentages. Michael Schumacher started 250 races and raced during 16 seasons, Ayrton Senna started 162 races and competed during 11 seasons.
Now let’s look at the stats again with the figures being a percentage of races started: Pole positions – Schumacher 27.2%, Senna 40.12%. Race wins – Schumacher 36.4%, Senna 25.3%. Podium finishes – Schumacher 61.6%, Senna 49.38%. Fastest laps – Schumacher 30.4%, Senna 11.73%. World championships – Schumacher 43.75%, Senna 27.27%.
There you go – much more workable. So, looking at that Senna was undoubtedly superior when it came to sticking his car on pole position, whilst Schumacher seems to have the upper hand in every other department. But how much of that is driver skill and how much is down to the car? Theoretically the “best” car should be the one that won the constructors championship.
So going on that Senna was in the “best” car in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 (McLaren) and 1994 (Williams), making that 45.45% of his career being in the superior car.
He began his career in the Toleman team in 1984 and won his first world championship point that same year in the South African GP. The following year he moved to Lotus after buying out the remaining year of his contract with Toleman. Lotus had finished the ’84 season in third position and, together with Ayrton, managed to finish in fourth in ’85. The final two years he spent with them, they got back to and maintained third in the standings, and Senna moved on to the McLaren years. 1988 saw Senna win eight of the 16 races to take his first ever World Championship. Together with his team mate, Prost, they also took the constructor’s championship in somewhat spectacular fashion – Gerhard Berger in the Ferrari being the only man who was able to beat them both in Italy and save the championship from a McLaren whitewash. He and the team stayed dominant, until the 1992 season finally saw them beaten by Williams.
In comparison, Schumacher was in the winning car in 1995 (Benetton), 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 (Ferrari), making that 43.75% of his career being in the best car.
He began his career with Benetton* when they were fourth in the championship. For the next two years he and Benetton finished third, the following year, second (in 1994 when he took his first world crown), and finally in 1995 he helped the Benetton team take that elusive first place, winning the World Championship himself for the second year running in the process. Schumacher then started the 96 season with Ferrari who had finished the previous season in 3rd place with 73 points. They together won the constructor’s championship 3 years later, and the following years dominated both the driver’s and constructor’s standings.
*For these purposes I am not counting the one race he had for Jordan in 1991, although his debut qualifying session where he came 7th is what impressed enough to give him his first drive for Benetton in the following race.
So overall, Schumacher had the better car for less of his career than Senna, suggesting he may have had the edge in terms of driving ability.
Now, the only place where the two can be directly comparable is during the 40 races (not including Imola on that fateful day) where they were up against each other. That figure puts Senna firmly in the driving seat, figuratively speaking, with ten race wins to Schumacher’s four, but that was at a time when Schumacher was just coming into the sport and still learning, whilst Senna was a seasoned pro. So, we have to go back to compare them at the very beginning of their racing career. Interestingly, they both scored points in their second ever races (and this time I do include the outing for Schumacher in the Jordan), however Senna finished 6th, whilst Schumacher went one better and came home 5th.
Not having had the privilege of seeing Senna drive first hand I can’t make judgement on him as a racer, but the facts and stats do say that out of the two Michael was the best, which came as a rather pleasant surprise to me. Believe it or not I was convinced that Senna would finish on top.
Any thoughts are more than welcome, and thanks for listening.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 8:51:22 GMT
I don't begin to have your wealth of knowledge on the subject as i have just a passing interest in Formula one . But there is no doubt these two have been head and shoulders above everybody else in the last 25 years . There is no secret to their success - an abundance of talent , obsessive dedication in what they were doing and an overwhelming will to win - sometimes regardless of the cost . It's that steely determination to succeed and loathing of losing which seperated them from the rest , but i think it is almost impossible to seperate them . Of the two Senna was the more flambouyant and exciting to watch , but Schumacher had that German trait of demanding the highest standards from his team as well as himself - it was no co-incidence that his Ferrari was the most reliable car on the grid . I would have to just give Schumacher the edge as statistics don't lie , but will we ever see the like of those two again ?
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Post by TWERP3 on May 16, 2007 15:23:16 GMT
As suggested by Schumi, I've copied over my ramblings from the BSF:
Interesting set of stats Schumi and thankyou for taking the time to compile them, although it comes as no real surprise to me, for a reason that I will come on to in a bit.
Going by percentages is certainly the fairest way; as you say, we don't know what would've happened after Imola '94, but I think there weren't many more race wins or championships left in Ayrton.
To be completely fair (and I'm not suggesting you do it) you would really have to go through every race and compare finishing positions, crashes, mechanical failures and other extenuating circumstances to eventual results, and then do the percentage comparison again, but I'm not sure that would make that much difference; please feel free to prove that, one way or another, if you find yourself with a free year!
Now then, that other thing I was talking about, the reason why comparing the two is so difficult; there's an intangible thing called 'talent' that makes any comparison very hard for anyone who hasn't enjoyed seeing both drivers.
Lots of drivers have talent, some of them do great things, others blow up, for whatever reason, and never fulfill their potential; drivers I would put in this category are Gilles Villeneuve, Jean Alesi, H-H Frentzen, Johnny Herbert and, going back a bit further, Chris Amon (possibly the unluckiest F1 driver of all time) and Clay Reggazoni, for a few examples.
You're probably a bit bored with me keep banging on about it, but I have never seen another driver with so much raw talent as Ayrton Senna, the thing that really set him aside from every other driver that I have seen (and I'm not just talking about F1) was his ability to push himself and his car to levels that others could only dream of.
I never tire of the mental image I have of him going visibly faster than everyone else in that F3 race at Brands Hatch; F3 then was so close, it was almost like a one make series, and yet here's a guy outpacing everyone else on almost every lap.
It's hard to describe really, but imagine a NASCAR race where they're all pretty much on the same pace and travelling line astern, then another guy is using every inch of tarmac and consistantly running 2 or 3 seconds a lap quicker than everyone else, then translate that to a road circuit.
The thing that really made Senna great was that he harnessed that raw talent and made it work for him, plus, without being overtly arrogant or cocky in his demeanor, he exuded an air of inner confidence that put him one step in front of his competition, before he even stepped in the car.
One stat that won't stand any comparison will be Senna's rate of qualifying accidents against Schumacher's; Senna will be way out in front, because it was a technique of his, push the car beyond it's limits, then adapt his driving style to suit and go a bit faster, and that tells you all you need to know.
Senna didn't change the car to suit his style, it was always the other way round; no-one ever made a car that pushed him beyond his limits.
And that was the difference between him and Schumacher; you always got the impression that Schumacher was looking for more from the car, Senna always got that little bit more from himself, and that's the one thing no statistic can ever show.
That's my view anyway.
PS anyone who got a point out of the Toleman tractor deserves a medal, especially at Kyalami!
PPS Paul, you may already be seeing another one, his name's Lewis Hamilton.........
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2007 16:44:15 GMT
We shall see mr twerp . I know it's a bit early to be forming judgements about Lewis Hamiltion , but there does look to be a touch of the Alain Prost about him . He has been given one of the top 4 cars on the grid so you should expect him to finish well up the order , but to me he looks steady and reliable rather than spectacular . Once the season develops properly i expect the championship to be fought out between Alonso and Massa .
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Post by schumi on May 17, 2007 11:04:09 GMT
but to me he looks steady and reliable rather than spectacular . You could have a point there Paul, and there's a niggling something that makes me wary of jumping on the bandwagon and saying he’s going to be the next Michael Schumacher. Maybe it’s because I find it hard to believe that anyone will ever equal or better Schumacher’s achievements, even less likely that it will be a Brit. Look at Montoya. All that hype after his first season in 2001 but he didn’t go on to greater things despite pulling off a brilliant overtaking move on Schumacher in Brazil. The Williams was terribly unreliable that year – his car finishing only 6 out of the 17 races, but in those he did manage to get the car home he had one 8th place, one 4th, three 2nd places and a win. That was impressive, and he had a fiery character to go with it. You always knew he’d put up a fight and give a performance that, love him or loathe him (and I'm in the latter category), you were compelled to watch. Lewis is sadly lacking in that so far, although he is consistent, but it’s impossible to judge how his future will pan out from the four races he’s had so far.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2007 14:25:16 GMT
I'm afraid with Lewis Hamilton , as usual , he's being hyped out of all proportion . Hope he doesn't disappoint like Coulthard and Button , but there is nothing he has done in a race as yet that has got me jumping out of my chair .
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Post by donsking on May 17, 2007 17:24:02 GMT
The trouble with Hamilton is that we've yet to see him tested, but from seeing him in other formulae I have no doubt he has the spirit to fight when he's behind.
I agree he hasn't done much yet to get the heart racing, although a couple of his first corner moves were pretty special, but I reckon it's been harder and harder to look really spectacular all the time for a good while now; as the part the car and it's technology plays got bigger, just wringing it's neck, like a Senna or a Villeneuve might, isn't always enough.
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Post by jimblanchard on May 17, 2007 18:08:56 GMT
The problem is Schumi, its always difficult to compare drivers from really different era’s. I appreciate that with Schumacher and Senna that they over lapped to some extent but the way the technology, design of the cars and most of the tracks have changed to much since 1994 since the end of Senna’s career and virtually the beginning of Michael’s make the comparison even more difficult. I am sure Senna would have achieved more had his life and career had not been cut short which I guess by saying that would have dented the success’s and list of achievements of Schumacher. Its also misleading to compare just on statistics. Like comparing Giacomo Agostini with Valentino Rossi. ‘Ago’ 15 times world champion, and 122 Grand Prix’s, which I doubt Rossi will ever be able to match. Having seen both of them race I would say that Rossi most likely a better rider than ‘Ago’ even though he raced in two races at a GP and most of them on pure road type circuits, though he did achieve many of his success’s at times without anything like the competition that Rossi faces week in and week out. Mike Hailwood my hero saved the life of a top F1 driver and was awarded the George medal for that deed. Can you name the driver? In my opinion Gilles Villeneuve as a racer was without equal. Of course these were the days when racing was dangerous and sex was safe.
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Post by schumi on May 17, 2007 18:18:15 GMT
Mike Hailwood my hero saved the life of a top F1 driver and was awarded the George medal for that deed. Can you name the driver? Clay Regazzoni at the South African Grand Prix in 1973. Do I win a prize? Edit: Jim. My aim when I started out was not to prove one way or another who was the better driver, only to give the stats for each to see how they compared. It's true that many other factors can, and will influence personal opinions, but I was hoping that it would provoke a reasonable discussion. So far it seems to be doing just that.
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Post by jimblanchard on May 17, 2007 19:37:07 GMT
Er no Schumi... ;D It was just when I mention some of the greats of the bike riders I just have to mention Mike Hailwood too, though he was not that bad a car racer anyway himself though he was always totally modest about that part of his career and admitted that he really did not gel with the 'car set'. To be honest, I could not have remembered the date myself without looking it up. Edit: Sorry about going off topic a bit.
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Post by schumi on May 17, 2007 20:08:30 GMT
I know some people are of the opinion that Senna had some sort of "sixth sense," so I thought I'd post a few quotes from Ayrton that he made during, and prior to, the 1994 season before his death. Make up your own minds:
"If I ever happen to have an accident that eventually costs me my life, I hope it is in one go. I would not like to be in a wheelchair. I would not like to be in a hospital suffering from whatever injury it was. If I'm going to live, I want to live fully. Very intensely, because I am an intense person. It would ruin my life if I had to live partially."
"It's going to be a season with lots of accidents, and I'll risk saying that we'll be lucky if something really serious doesn't happen."
"There are no small accidents on this circuit." (Talking about Imola.)
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Post by donsking on May 17, 2007 23:43:01 GMT
His 'sixth sense' was knowing just what to do to go that little bit faster; his all important 'seventh sense' told him that the machine was taking over, and unless the focus on safety was turned up to 11 on the dial, people were going to get seriously hurt.
Shame it took his death, and that of the enormously talented Roland Ratzenberger, to prove him right...........
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Post by jimblanchard on May 18, 2007 7:12:17 GMT
Interesting quotes Schumi. I would not want to comment on the guy’s mindset, as I would be totally out of my depth but he did seemed to have a fatalistic attitude going by a lot of the things he said. Maybe that contributed to the aura. Dug out the Autosport issue for the week of his crash and death . Dated the 5th of May 1994. (the crash took place on the Sunday the 1st of May, my birthday, and we were all at Donington Park for the World Superbikes, and I watched it live on a portable in black and white in the caravan) Obviously, its filled with many tributes and discussions of why and how the crash happened. Apart from the crash that cost Senna his life I had forgotten that Roland Ratzenberger died that weekend, Rubens Barrichello suffered a very nasty looking crash during practise where it seemed he was very luck to survive without serious injury and also some Ferrari mechanics were hurt when wheel came off a car driven by Michele Alboreto in pit lane and of course the big shunt at the start that caused the race to be restarted. Quite an eventful weekend that one. To continue my musings. We use to go to Germany quite a bit until about 5 years ago for motorcycle events out there. I can remember many times seeing Michael’s go kart place at Kerpen where it can easily be seen from the main road from Belgium into Germany. Also, we were at Hockenheim once based in the huge paddock there and we took a look around the pit lane and podium area on the Saturday evening before having a meal in the hotel restaurant balcony that over looks the start and finish straight. A couple of months previously I think Rubens Barrichello had won his first Grand Prix in a Ferrari? Anyway, we noticed something poking out of the fence along there and on close inspection it was the biggest champagne cork I have ever seen. Denise and I kept it on the basis it was the one that flew out of Rubens bottle of bubbly (in reality it could have been anyone’s of course…) and we still have it. We always found that most of the ordinary Germans we had dealings with (mostly bike fans) not F1 fanatics that Heinz Harald Frentzen seemed more popular with them at the time in spite of all Michael’s success. Did I read somewhere that there was a loose family connection between those two ? Denise is like yourself as she thinks he could never do any wrong. Decent museum at Hockenhiem by the way which is worth a look but the one at the Nurburgring is even better with much more exhibits and interesting cars. I have gone off topic a bit again… I’ll get my coat.
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Post by schumi on May 18, 2007 8:30:29 GMT
Not sure about family connections, but Corinna (Michael’s wife) dated Heinz Harald before Michael.
Black weekend. I’ve seen footage of the accident which killed Senna and there are so many questions to ask. Why didn’t the officials get to him sooner? There must have been at least 8 or so guys on the track, but not one of them went to check on him. Why was the race even allowed to go ahead after the death of Ratzenberger? Italian law dictates there should have been an enquiry and the race should have been cancelled. So many questions to which we'll never know the answers, in fact it's only recently that Frank Williams and five others have been cleared of the charge of manslaughter.
As you mentioned Barrichello I thought I’d just add that he said when he came round in hospital after the accident, Senna was sitting by his bedside with a tear in his eye. Senna’s death affected the whole of Brazil, indeed the whole of the racing community too, but for Rubens it must have been especially hard.
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Post by donsking on May 18, 2007 9:24:43 GMT
As to why the race wasn't cancelled; I believe I'm right in saying that that law would only apply if the driver died at the circuit.
In the case of both Ratzenberger and Senna, the F1 authorities took great pains to make sure that the actual pronouncment of death took place after they had left the confines of the track, despite the fact that both men were dead before they even left their cars.
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