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Post by admin on Jul 8, 2007 0:39:38 GMT
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Post by donsking on Jul 8, 2007 1:36:09 GMT
No, Tom Farndon was a winner, Duncan Edwards nearly got there, but not quite.
Who was better, Peter Craven V Tom Farndon, or Duncan Edwards V Bobby Moore?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 14:36:34 GMT
It was a different world back then.I know i was amazed when i read about the crowd scenes outside the hospital. The thing that struck me and i haven't got the extensive records of someone like Norbold,was his inconsistency(or so it seems).Whenever i have seen results from Tom Farndon he seemed to get lots of very average scores.5 or 6 from a meeting.He doesn't seem to be the sort who would get an 11 point average from a season
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Post by jimblanchard on Jul 8, 2007 17:49:55 GMT
Tom was my dads favorite rider (living in Deptford and a regular pre war fan at New Cross) Doug and he often told me stories of how good he was and indeed there was a huge out pouring of grief when he died - outside the hospital which was known as 'The Miller' (Greenwich Hospital) where my mum later worked as a cleaner of the nurses accommodation area. I was actually born in the same hospital about 14 years after Tom lost his life there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 18:14:16 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 9:39:54 GMT
How did I miss this???
You're talking about my hero here. The greatest rider of all time!
He averaged 9.56 in 1933, 10.06 in 1934 and 9.74 in 1935. He was the only rider to hold the British Individual Match Race Championship, the Star Riders' Championship and the London Riders' Championship at the same time. He was totally dominant in the Match Race Championship, so much so that when he died the competition was suspended as a mark of respect for 11 years. At one time he held every first division track record simultaneously. Ron Johnson once described one match race Farndon was in against Max Grosskreutz as the greatest piece of riding he had ever seen. Farndon was behind entering the last bend of the last lap. Grosskreutz was already turning into bend 4 as Farndon entered bend 3. Grosskreutz was on the outside and Farndon on the inside. Without moving an inch from the white line, Farndon actually got round the bend quicker than Grosskreutz to win the race. Johnson said, "I have never seen any rider, before or since, handle a machine like Tom did that night."
To some extent, of course, Subedei, what you are saying is true. If he hadn't been killed in 1935 who knows what he would have gone on to do. It's my unshakable belief that we would remember him as the first world champion in 1936, not Lionel Van Praag.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 11:10:55 GMT
Maybe you could give us a more in depth idea of what was going on back then Norbold.It is obvious that he was definitely one of the best riders in the world at the time.But why for example wasn't he more of a regular in the Test matches?And his scores in what were some of the most important meetings on the calendar are not what you would call terrific.I guess it is hard for us to judge,but is it do you think that there was more strength in depth back then?Taking a quick glance at some other top riders and they also are not scoring week in,week out,like a Mauger of Nielsen.I see that the 9.74 made him the leagues top rider.He did seem to have a lot of scores like (3,3,F,3).The heats he finished he generally won,but there are a fair few heats he never made it to the chequered flag. It also struck me on reading your book on Wembley that Lionel Van Praag took quite a while to get to the top even at Wembley.I always imagined these guys came over as fully-fledged heat leaders because the quality of racing in Australia was a lot better in the early years
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 13:39:15 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean by not a regular in Test matches. Farndon came to prominence in 1932. In that year he rode in 5 out of 5 Test matches as he did in 1933 and 1934. In 1935 he rode in 4 out of 5. Without looking it up, I would guess that he missed the first Test through injury or something. So from 1932 - 1935 he rode in 19 out of a possible 20 Tests.
There was a lot of strength in depth but I also think that scores were affected by more frequent engine failures than now and also more falls than now, especially by leg trailers, as Tom was.
Van Praag did take some time to reach the top but he was not part of the first influx of Aussies who were streets ahead of their English counterparts originally. Riders like Vic Huxley, Frank Arthur and Billy Lamont. By the time Van Praag arrived in 1931, the English riders had caught up. In any case, Van Praag was never one of the elite in Australia before he came. He was good but not top class. It took him a few years of riding over here to turn him in to the star rider he became in the late 1930s.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 14:03:52 GMT
Mmmm well i had looked at 1931 also,where he only made a couple of appearances.But he didn't really shine in those tests.The thing that struck me is that he does seem(and this is just my impression of course) to be neck and neck with team mate Ron Johnson.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2007 15:16:49 GMT
Yes, he only made a couple of appearances in 1931, but he was on his way up then. He wasn't a star at that point. I would say he was definitely better than Ron Johnson between 32 and 35. Not by much, but still definitely better.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 14, 2007 13:57:53 GMT
Norbold,
Were there reasons why Tom Farndon didn't win the Star Championship in 1932 or 1934?
I already consider Vic Duggan and Jack Parker to be two of speedway's greats, despite the fact they never won the big one (largely thanks to the small matter of a World War).
Before I add Farndon to my list, give me a bit more evidence. And is there any footage of him in action?
All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2007 16:38:31 GMT
I don't know why Farndon didn't win in 1932 or 1934. He qualified for the 1932 finals but didn't qualify for the 1934 finals. I will be doing some research on that in the near future and I'll see if there were any particular reasons but of course not all great riders win the World Championship every year. Why didn't Tony Rickardsson win every year from 1994 to 2004? Why didn't Ove Fundin win every year from 1956 to 1967? There are other good riders around. There is bad luck. There are injuries. There are all sorts of reasons.
It is difficult to explain by statistics alone why Farndon is considered to be such a great rider. As I've said above he was the only rider to hold all three major championships of his day at the same time and he did hold all the Division One track records simultaneously. He was red hot favourite to win the 1935 Star Riders' Championship. He was unbeatable in the Match Race Championship. He took it from the great Vic Huxley in 1934, beating him 2-0 in both legs, home and away. In each of the four races he broke the existing track records at Wimbledon and New Cross respectively, becoming the first man to complete four laps on a British speedway track in under 60 seconds when he recorded 59.6 seconds at New Cross, an astonishing 1.4 seconds faster than Eric Langton's existing record. He then went on to defeat all challengers including other top class riders such as Max Grosskreutz and Dicky Case and was undefeated at the time of his death, holding the title longer and through more challenges than any other pre-War champion.
But it's not just a matter of statistics. I never saw him of course, being far too young, but reading the reports of his races in the old speedway press of the time you can sense something of the excitement that was around every time he raced. When he defeated Dick Case, twenty four coach loads of New Cross supporters went to Wembley just to see and support him. New Cross itself was not involved in the match.
I have also spoken to a couple of people he were lucky enough to see him ride and they also say there was just something about seeing him ride that was electrifying. Tom Farndon was the subject of real hero worship in a way no other rider of his time was.
I'm sorry I can't give you concrete evidence in the form of reams of statistics, though what he did do in his short life was good enough, but there was more to the man than that. Ask Jim Blanchard what his dad thought about him...
Ron Johnson, the New Cross captain, whose career spanned 34 years from 1926 to 1960, and who saw all the greats of his time from Vic Huxley to Vic Duggan; from Frank Arthur to Ove Fundin, always maintained that Tom Farndon was the greatest rider he'd ever seen.
I don't know if there is any footage of him in action. I would love to see it if there was.
P.S. I think I should add that Tom Farndon was only 24 when he died, the same age as Chris Harris is currently. Compare their achievements at the same age!
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Post by Genghis on Jul 14, 2007 22:40:32 GMT
Cheers Norbold - that was most interesting.
It is difficult to judge on pre-war riders, as there are so few still about with first-hand experience of riding or watching this period. And records of this period are a little sketchy.
I look forward to reading the results of any further research on Tom Farndon.
All the best Rob
P.S. How good was the league form, etc of Lionel Van Pragg, Jack Milne and Bluey Wilkinson. Bluey Wilkinson's World Final record is about as close to perfection as possible (29 points out of 30... and the dropped point came about because he only needed second place to clinch the championship!) - was he as dominant in other competitions?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 9:14:42 GMT
League performances from 1937 - 39:
1937 Jack Milne: 11.09 Lionel Van Praag: 10.53 Bluey Wilkinson: 10.13 (Eric Langton was the only other rider to score more than 10 with 10.18)
1938 Jack Milne: 10.96 Bluey Wilkinson: 10.63 Lionel Van Praag: 10.58 (Two other riders scored over 10. Wilbur Lamoreaux, 10.89 and Bill Kitchen 10.28)
1939 Lionel Van Praag: 10.61 Jack Milne: 10.00 Bluey Wilkinson had retired by then. (Five other riders scored over ten, Cordy Milne 11.29; Wilbur Lamoreaux 11.06, Bill Kitchen 10.88, Vic Duggan 10.67, Arthur Atkinson 10.46.) The season was truncated by the outbreak of war.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 11:15:13 GMT
Norbold,i thought Tom appeared in one of the films from the 30s.Didn't grachan uncover the fact that the BFI found an existing German copy?Can't remember the title.Money for Speed?
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