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Post by jimblanchard on May 24, 2007 16:16:48 GMT
How good was he in the greater scheme of things.
? I thought he was an 'ace' to me and an ex motorcycle racer too ;D
Maybe he fluked one but we have gone down that route on the BSF about the 1994 world championship with .
Schumacher.
But truly, was he/is a justifiable world champion? Should he have kept racing and not retired when he did?
What do you rekon DK a worthy world champion or just another one that 'fluked' it. I would appreciate your opinion.
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Post by schumi on May 24, 2007 16:41:52 GMT
Damon Hill started 122 Grand Prix, with 22 race wins and 20 pole positions, the only son of a world champion to become one himself.
Unfortunately I think he should have retired long before he did. The win he had for Jordan was tainted by the fact that Ralf Schumacher had the fastest car and should have overtaken him, but for Eddie Jordan's team orders at a wet and miserable Spa. One driver who I don't think would have won another WC even if he had been given the drive for Williams the following year.
Damon has always been the perfect gentleman when I have seen him outside of formula one, but whilst he has any involvement with the sport his dislike of Michael Schumacher seems to always cloud his judgement, and as such I often perceive him as being bitter. Not my favourite driver, I have to say, but then as a Schumacher fan I don't suppose I can claim to like both.
Has there ever been a case in racing of the son being better than the father? Graham Hill won two world championships, despite winning less races than his son, and I don't think there's any doubt that Gilles was a better driver than Jacques, as I also don't expect Bruno Senna to be in the same league as Ayrton, although, granted, Bruno is only his nephew, not his son.
And if we can take this one stage further who is the best British racing driver in your opinions? Stirling Moss, James Hunt, Jim Clark, Mike Hailwood, Nigel Mansell, Jackie Stewart, perhaps?
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Post by Genghis on May 24, 2007 17:16:04 GMT
Damon Hill is a massively underrated driver.
22 race wins from 122 races are mightly fine stats - there's more wins than fellow one-time champs Rosberg and J. Villeneuve put together.
He was winning around 1 in 3 races at Williams - it's one thing to be given the best car, it's quite another to win races in it. Many fine drivers had been in the best car and failed. Damon didn't fail - he won one World Championship and was arguably robbed of another.
He did start in F1 late, and maybe he should have retired when Williams disgracefully kicked him out and kept the far inferior Villeneuve. Had he retired at that point, his wins/starts ratio would have been tremendous.
However, then we would have missed perhaps his greatest drive, it was one he didn't win but deserved to, at Hungary in the Arrows.
It was Damon's only half-chance of a decent race all season, due to the tyre situation. He realised that, took the bull by the horns, went flying past everyone (who said he couldn't pass?) and had the race in the bag, when the car broke on the final lap.
He always came across as thoroughly decent as well - and was freshingly honest for a F1 driver. I liked him.
All the best
Rob
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Post by donsking on May 24, 2007 18:07:06 GMT
I'm pretty much with Rob on this one; not the most naturally gifted driver (no different to his Dad in that respect), but a really hard worker who I think deserved his WC, and should really have notched up two. As Rob intimated, Damon's detractors always say he had the best car, and so he did, but they don't drive themselves! That Hungary drive was superb, more so for me as Arrows had been 'my team' since they first appeared; how he got that old shed anywhere near a win remains a surprise. Not the best we've produced, but definitely not the worst, and a thoroughly nice chap into the bargain. Which brings me to Schumi's question; of that list, James Hunt and Mike Hailwood not even close (sorry Jim  and I've always had my doubts about Mansell. Given that Clark had the beating of Stewart pretty much everywhere, that knocks JYS out of the box, so that leaves us with the question F1 people have been asking since the 60s; Moss or Clark? They did overlap briefly, and (AFAIK) Clark never beat Moss in a GP, but they were similar drivers in so much as they seemed to easily adapt to different cars; Moss I think holds the record for racing and placing in more cars than anyone else, Clark raced single seaters, Saloons, Sports Cars, Indy, Rally cars, had a go at NASCAR and frequently raced in several classes at one meeting. The unanswered question about both is what would've happened had they continued, as they certainly had more years left in them, but the other question about Clark is what would he have been like in a better car? Had he gone almost anywhere other than Lotus, I strongly suspect he would be the undisputed King of the Brits. |
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Post by admin on May 24, 2007 18:28:35 GMT
But for his win in the Arrows (or was it the Jordan), I'd have dismissed his title as being more about the car than the driver. But that Arrows - if Arrows it was - win, rather deals a fatal blow to that. A workmanlike driver, but worthy, non-the-less.
Schumi says - yes, it was the Jordan.
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Post by jimblanchard on May 24, 2007 19:01:24 GMT
 I know that is true DK, but he was the dog's dangley bits on a motorcycle and apart from Barry Sheene, I believe that MH was an hero to Damon himself...   He was a bit special but he thought cars were dangerous. I loved him anyway.
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Post by Genghis on May 24, 2007 19:04:38 GMT
But for his win in the Arrows (or was it the Jordan), I'd have dismissed his title as being more about the car than the driver. But that Arrows - if Arrows it was - win, rather deals a fatal blow to that. A workmanlike driver, but worthy, non-the-less. Sub, Damon Hill nearly won in an Arrows in Hungary in 1997 - but the car failed on the final lap, he lost a 30 second lead and limped over the line in second place. It the closest Arrows ever came to winning a F1 race. It was the best drive of Hill's career. He DID win once in the Jordan at Spa in 1998 in a controversial race (it sparked off a long-running war of words between Schumacher and Coulthard, after Schumacher ploughed straight into the back of Coulthard and somehow blamed DC for it) - but it was less impressive than the near-win in the Arrows. All the best Rob |
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Post by schumi on May 24, 2007 19:10:18 GMT
(it sparked off a long-running war of words between Schumacher and Coulthard, after Schumacher ploughed straight into the back of Coulthard and somehow blamed DC for it) It was raining and Coulthard lifted off the gas.  |
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Post by Genghis on May 24, 2007 19:16:06 GMT
And if we can take this one stage further who is the best British racing driver in your opinions? Stirling Moss, James Hunt, Jim Clark, Mike Hailwood, Nigel Mansell, Jackie Stewart, perhaps? Schumi, My choices have to be based largely on books for the older drivers, but I'd say: 5. Graham Hill (a grafter like his son, 5 wins at Monaco is highly impressive) 4. Nigel Mansell ("our Nige", a real British Bulldog, spectacular when on a charge) 3. Jackie Stewart (shrewd and calculating, even more "The Professor" than Prost?) 2. Stirling Moss (the out-and-out leading driver between 1958-1961, if only he'd have gone to Ferrari, instead of driving unreliable privateers) 1. Jim Clark (the Senna of his era, if the Lotus didn't falter, Clark won, simple as that) I think Damon would be sixth. All the best Rob |
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Post by Genghis on May 24, 2007 19:18:49 GMT
(it sparked off a long-running war of words between Schumacher and Coulthard, after Schumacher ploughed straight into the back of Coulthard and somehow blamed DC for it) It was raining and Coulthard lifted off the gas. Come on Schumi, even you can't argue with this one - Coulthard moved over and slowed down to let Michael by, then Michael rammed straight into him  All the best Rob |
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Post by schumi on May 24, 2007 19:24:48 GMT
It was raining and Coulthard lifted off the gas. Come on Schumi, even you can't argue with this one - Coulthard moved over and slowed down to let Michael by, then Michael rammed straight into him All the best Rob Oh yes I can and I will. ;D The argument after Michael went to punch Coulthard was that DC slowed and Michael had no chance of avoiding him because visibility was so poor. It was claimed by McLaren that DC hadn't slowed, but now you're saying he did? |
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Post by Genghis on May 24, 2007 20:51:09 GMT
Come on Schumi, even you can't argue with this one - Coulthard moved over and slowed down to let Michael by, then Michael rammed straight into him All the best Rob Oh yes I can and I will. ;D The argument after Michael went to punch Coulthard was that DC slowed and Michael had no chance of avoiding him because visibility was so poor. It was claimed by McLaren that DC hadn't slowed, but now you're saying he did? Schumi, Poppycock! McLaren's argument was that Coulthard had slowed, but not brake tested him as Ferrari claimed. The FIA examined the evidence and found Coulthard innocent of any wrong doing. Schumacher lost his rag at the frustration of not being let immediately past by Coulthard (due to the poor visibility) and his loss temper put himself out of the race - and went a long way to costing him the 1998 championship. All the best Rob |
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Post by schumi on May 24, 2007 20:57:04 GMT
Oh yes I can and I will. ;D The argument after Michael went to punch Coulthard was that DC slowed and Michael had no chance of avoiding him because visibility was so poor. It was claimed by McLaren that DC hadn't slowed, but now you're saying he did? The FIA examined the evidence and found Coulthard innocent of any wrong doing. Not quite. They found him not guilty of deliberately slowing on the telemetry. That's not to say he wasn't guilty of any wrong doing. If you ask me he was lucky. ;D |
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Post by donsking on May 24, 2007 21:03:05 GMT
1. Jim Clark (the Senna of his era, if the Lotus didn't falter, Clark won, simple as that) I think Damon would be sixth. All the best Rob The really frightening thing about Clark's ability is that he won when the car did falter! The Lotus mechanics used to pay close attention to his lap times; if they dropped for a couple of laps and then went back to normal, they knew there was a problem with the car and it had taken Jimmy a couple of laps to adjust his driving style to suit, and that's a rare skill. He quite often finished and won races without the full compliment of gears, or suspension that was just about to fall apart, or almost no brakes, or any one of a thousand problems the 'engineered for lightness' Loti suffered from. The downside was, he was reckoned to be an awful test and development driver, he just used to drive round the problems rather than make a conscious effort to change them. On the other hand, he got results from cars that shouldn't even have been on the grid, and I don't think even Ayrton was that good............. |
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Post by schumi on Jun 5, 2007 21:21:35 GMT
I've just been surfing the net and came across a stat based website. Not entirely sure how accurate it is, but it looks pretty good to me. What was interesting is that Kimi Raikkonen has already scored more points than Damon did in his entire career. And I don't rate Kimi either.
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and I've always had my doubts about Mansell.
