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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 22:10:41 GMT
I once saw him race around the Hackney track on his ice bike - now that was an experience!! For him or you Kev? ;D Both of us I expect Jim.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2007 22:44:54 GMT
Finally got here.... I took a couple of cheap shots at Hans on another thread in this section, which were quickly picked up and argued by Rob, but I thought I'd keep my full comments about Hans for this thread, although I would still, jokingly, contend that scoring 8% or 16% less points is a "much lesser part" There is no questioning the figures that go against Hans' name when it comes to titles and averages....The guy was peerless at League level for a long time, and racked up more world titles than anyone else, but I'm not convinced that those stats tell the whole story.... When it comes to choosing a "greatest", Rob has the benefit/bias of having seen Hans week in week out for years on end in domestic competition, something which is obviously going to make a difference to his choice. However, I never found any appeal in watching Hans race. I disliked the way he chose to attire himself when he was racing (who could ever like the one that chose to race in "villain" black rather than "hero" white), but I particularly disliked his racing style! That may seem rather pathetic to admit, but the simple fact is that I was immediately set against Hans by his racing style. It was, for want of a better word, dull. No matter what he did in the way of passing riders, which I didn't see so much, he always did it with a complete lack of "style". Erik Gundersen, on the other hand, thrilled me wth the way he rode a speedway bike. Whether he was gating first and romping away at the front or missing the gate horribly and blasting around a pair of Americans when the chips were down at a World final, the way he raced a speedway bike just left me thinking "WOW!". But it isn't all about the way the two rode their bikes. As I already mentioned, Rob saw Hans week in week out. I didn't. I pretty much only saw Hans in the meetings that really counted. The meetings that TV chose to broadcast, and in those meetings Erik showed his true nature, or maybe it was Hans who showed his true nature. Either way, from the meetings that I was able to see, Erik had the measure of Hans when it came down to the real serious stuff. Erik may not have had the upper-hand on Hans race by race, but he certainly had a psychological upper-hand when they came head to head for the greatest prize. For that reason alone, ignoring anything else I said, I would place Erik as the "Main Dane". How many times do discussions about the "greatest" end up with the obvious statement that you just can't judge across generations? With Hans and Erik, we were lucky enough to witness two greats right next to each other on track, and Erik had the measure of Hans when it really counted. Of course, as a conclussion, I could suggest that Erik was the "most complete" as he won all the FIM track racing titles, but I don't rate Longtrack as genuine speedway, so I wont. I could also turn to stats and suggest that Wembley is the true home of the World Final, and Erik holds the track record there....but that would just be a little weak as an argument, so I'll stick with what I already said! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2007 8:21:28 GMT
I could suggest that Erik was the "most complete" as he won all the FIM track racing titles, but I don't rate Longtrack as genuine speedway, so I wont. I'd say that Nielsen was a more complete speedway rider than Gundersen, as longtrack doesn't really count in my book. It's true that Gundersen psychologically had the upper-hand in World Finals earlier on, but I think Nielsen had pretty much got on equal terms in that respect by the time Gundersen's career was ended. After all, both had won three world titles by then. Furthermore, if the outcome of the 1988 World Final runoff lottery had been different, Nielsen would have had four titles to Gundersen's two by then. As for all round consistency, well Nielsen had that in spades over Gundersen - it was a major shock if he dropped more than a point in a league match. I know people will point to Leigh Adams as being similar, but he's also never won a world title, and has consistently underachieved in the SGP. When we talk of Nielsen's 'failures', we're talking of finishing second or third on umpteen occasions. As for Nielsen v Rickardsson, well I think it's impossible to really compare their achievements as all but one of Rickardsson's titles were won under the GP system. Rickardsson was certainly a great rider and had what it took to win the big events, but for me he was quite inconsistent (not to mention self-centred) at league level. Nielsen consistently gave 100% for his team (and indeed at every meeting), and still managed to win four world titles. I had the privilege to watch Hans Nielsen week-in week-out for eight years, and for me he's indisputably the best rider that I've watched. The best ever... probably not, but I don't doubt he's up there with the best.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2007 19:58:37 GMT
But it isn't all about the way the two rode their bikes. As I already mentioned, Rob saw Hans week in week out. I didn't. I pretty much only saw Hans in the meetings that really counted. The meetings that TV chose to broadcast, and in those meetings Erik showed his true nature, or maybe it was Hans who showed his true nature. Either way, from the meetings that I was able to see, Erik had the measure of Hans when it came down to the real serious stuff. Erik may not have had the upper-hand on Hans race by race, but he certainly had a psychological upper-hand when they came head to head for the greatest prize. Biggest reason for that would be Ole Olsen, who constantly ignored Hans.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2007 2:15:04 GMT
Biggest reason for that would be Ole Olsen, who constantly ignored Hans. Huh? *shrugs shoulders in confusion* What? You think that Ole should have helped with Hans' psychological preparation when Erik was the one paying him to assist him? Erik knew what he wanted, built his team behind him and took the edge over Hans.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2007 8:46:02 GMT
What? You think that Ole should have helped with Hans' psychological preparation when Erik was the one paying him to assist him? I think the point was that Olsen was the Danish team manager at the time, and should have helped all his riders.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 14, 2007 10:01:07 GMT
What? You think that Ole should have helped with Hans' psychological preparation when Erik was the one paying him to assist him? But Ole WAS the Danish team manager Hans Nielsen, not being a walkover, wouldn't play a subordinate role to Olsen while Olsen was still not riding. Olsen's reaction was to help Erik above Hans. That's why Hans brought in Ivan. Ivan made very little difference to Hans in terms of riding or machinery, he was there simply for the psychology. Hans & Ivan were only together for 3 finals, the leagcy of Ivan's involvement was that he persuaded Hans to ride that much harder in World Finals. I think Hans would have won the World Final, even without Ivan's help. But in 1985, he had beaten Erik, and was only beaten by a combination of bad luck and riding by Ole's puppy Tommy Knudsen, who had instructions to mess up Hans. Knudsen managed not only to get Nielsen to drop two points, but also wrecked Nielsen's best bike, which didn't leave him in best position to attempt to repeat his earlier win over Erik in the run-off. Incidentally, Erik always seemed innocent in such plans, but Olsen and Knudsen were wankers. How appropriate what happened in the 1986 final In 1985, Hans had beaten Erik. However, he couldn't beat the combination of Erik, Tommy and Ole. It wasn't the only World Championship Hans lost because others clubbed together up in a so-called individual event (the other ocassion was 1996). I think Hans deserves credit for riding in the World Championship as an individual and not asking favours of others, even though it meant he ended up with four instead of six titles. But the overall picture shows a total of 22 World Championships, 5 clear of Erik Gundersen and 8 clear of Ivan Mauger, in the list of all-time greats. All the best Rob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 16:42:28 GMT
What? You think that Ole should have helped with Hans' psychological preparation when Erik was the one paying him to assist him? I think the point was that Olsen was the Danish team manager at the time, and should have helped all his riders. That was my point exactly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 16:45:34 GMT
What? You think that Ole should have helped with Hans' psychological preparation when Erik was the one paying him to assist him? But Ole WAS the Danish team manager Hans Nielsen, not being a walkover, wouldn't play a subordinate role to Olsen while Olsen was still not riding. Olsen's reaction was to help Erik above Hans. That's why Hans brought in Ivan. Ivan made very little difference to Hans in terms of riding or machinery, he was there simply for the psychology. Hans & Ivan were only together for 3 finals, the leagcy of Ivan's involvement was that he persuaded Hans to ride that much harder in World Finals. I think Hans would have won the World Final, even without Ivan's help. But in 1985, he had beaten Erik, and was only beaten by a combination of bad luck and riding by Ole's puppy Tommy Knudsen, who had instructions to mess up Hans. Knudsen managed not only to get Nielsen to drop two points, but also wrecked Nielsen's best bike, which didn't leave him in best position to attempt to repeat his earlier win over Erik in the run-off. Incidentally, Erik always seemed innocent in such plans, but Olsen and Knudsen were wankers. How appropriate what happened in the 1986 final In 1985, Hans had beaten Erik. However, he couldn't beat the combination of Erik, Tommy and Ole. It wasn't the only World Championship Hans lost because others clubbed together up in a so-called individual event (the other ocassion was 1996). I think Hans deserves credit for riding in the World Championship as an individual and not asking favours of others, even though it meant he ended up with four instead of six titles. But the overall picture shows a total of 22 World Championships, 5 clear of Erik Gundersen and 8 clear of Ivan Mauger, in the list of all-time greats. All the best Rob You are absolutely spot on. Ole Olsen and Frank Ebdon conspired to ruin the great man, HE did not crumble though. Hans, you are the GREATEST!
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Post by admin on Jul 15, 2007 16:56:07 GMT
Hans, you are the GREATEST! After Bruce Cribb, of course.
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Post by admin on Jul 21, 2007 11:48:52 GMT
The Danish team for a Test Match versus England at Cradley Heath on May 4th, 1985:
1..E Gundersen..8.32 2..J Eskildsen..6.57 3..B Petersen..8.06 4..P Eriksen..9.37 5..T Knudsen..9.60 6..P Ravn..8.57 7..R..J O Pedersen..7.13 8..R..H Nielsen..10.69
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Post by schumi on Jul 21, 2007 12:51:30 GMT
Crikey, I've not long dug out an old autograph book of mine with maybe a dozen or so signatures. Peter Ravn was one of them.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 21, 2007 12:52:23 GMT
The Danish team for a Test Match versus England at Cradley Heath on May 4th, 1985: 1..E Gundersen..8.32 2..J Eskildsen..6.57 3..B Petersen..8.06 4..P Eriksen..9.37 5..T Knudsen..9.60 6..P Ravn..8.57 7..R..J O Pedersen..7.13 8..R..H Nielsen..10.69 Hans was also No. 8 for the test match at Oxford. Due to tapes exculsions, he ended up taking two rides towards the end of the meeting. Olsen was too stubborn to ask Nielsen to ride, and in the end, Nielsen rode at the request of the Oxford promoters. All the best Rob NB Note Gundersen and Nielsen's respective averages. Erik was a wonderful speedway rider, but consistency was NOT his hallmark.
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Post by admin on Jul 21, 2007 13:05:45 GMT
I suspect Gundersen probably had an indifferent start to the season - May 4th, is still, as they say, early doors. I'd be surprised if he didn't end the season above 10 points. However, he was never as consistent as Nielsen, but he could pull it out of the hat for a critical race. Which is why I suspect he'd have done as well as Nielsen in the GPs. It all comes down to the final. And Gundersen would've won his far share of those.
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Post by Genghis on Jul 21, 2007 13:26:49 GMT
I suspect Gundersen probably had an indifferent start to the season - May 4th, is still, as they say, early doors. I'd be surprised if he didn't end the season above 10 points. However, he was never as consistent as Nielsen, but he could pull it out of the hat for a critical race. Which is why I suspect he'd have done as well as Nielsen in the GPs. It all comes down to the final. And Gundersen would've won his far share of those. Sub, It's impossible to say, of course, my guess is that Gundersen would have his fair share of Grand Prix rounds, but that Nielsen's incredible consistency that extended to world level would have won him more World Championships. From 1984 to 1989, both Nielsen & Gundersen won three world titles, but Nielsen outscored Gundersen by 14 points. Results like Gundersen's tenth place in the 1986 World Final, or his 4 points in the 1987 BLRC, would have hurt under a GP series. Erik would have been good in the finals, but there would have been occassions when he would have even failed to make the semi-finals. Would Erik have been like Jason Crump, who has won 16 GP rounds, but only two world championships due to inconsistency during the rounds (except last year, of course, when Crumpie was brilliant all year). All the best Rob
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