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Post by schumi on Sept 13, 2007 18:42:31 GMT
Penalties aside for this one. I'm sure everyone agrees that was one harsh outcome. Take it to the crux of the matter - did they or didn't they? And be honest!
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Post by admin on Sept 13, 2007 18:54:35 GMT
Absolutely not. Max Mosely, like his father before him, is an absolute disgrace to the human race.
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Post by Genghis on Sept 13, 2007 18:58:47 GMT
Ron Dennis is one TOUGH competitor, but he wouldn't cheat. Apart from anything, he's not stupid, and would have known McLaren would have been discovered. Therefore it's a Ferrari stitch-up.
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Post by donsking on Sept 13, 2007 19:10:00 GMT
Given that Mike Coughlan has said they did, and who should know better than him, then I can only assume they did; the real question is, what advantage did it give them?
The problem with having any kind of advantage at the beggining of the season is that the top players will catch up pretty quickly, that's the nature of topline motorsport; in this case, the thing that makes the penalty seem exceptionally harsh to me is, whatever advantage McLaren may have gained, Ferrari must've known what it was because it's meant to be their demon tweak!
The other thing is that cheating in all forms of motorsport is rife (I could tell some stories of the stuff I've seen!) and the more money is involved, the greater the lengths folk will go to to gain an edge.
It strikes me that someone seriously had it in for either the team or someone in it, otherwise this would never have got out.
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Post by schumi on Sept 13, 2007 19:14:02 GMT
the real question is, what advantage did it give them? Not for me it's not - it's a case of all the lies. They denied it, then they changed their minds and admitted snippets, then we get a bit more of the truth and so on. Colin Horton's got nothing on these guys. But the FIA offered exoneration to the McLaren drivers if they provided evidence against McLaren. Now, I already have Hamilton down as a bit devious after the pit stop saga. Does anyone think he or de la Rosa looked after number one? I have no doubt Alonso would have done, but as he didn't bother to turn up in Paris at least he's not being two-faced.
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Post by donsking on Sept 13, 2007 19:18:00 GMT
the real question is, what advantage did it give them? Not for me it's not - it's a case of all the lies. They denied it, then they changed their minds and admitted snippets, then we get a bit more of the truth and so on. Colin Horton's got nothing on these guys. But the FIA offered exoneration to the McLaren drivers if they provided evidence against McLaren. Now, I already have Hamilton down as a bit devious after the pit stop saga. Does anyone think he or de la Rosa looked after number one? I have no doubt Alonso would have done, but as he didn't bother to turn up in Paris at least he's not being two-faced. But that's just a part of sports politics. Question: if you were the CEO of a multimillion dollar, household name, public eye business, at the first sign of something like this would you put your hands up and say 'it's a fair cop'?
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Post by schumi on Sept 13, 2007 19:26:17 GMT
[ Question: if you were the CEO of a multimillion dollar, household name, public eye business, at the first sign of something like this would you put your hands up and say 'it's a fair cop'? With reference to Ron Dennis I've just watched what he had to say, and I honestly don't think he was involved in any way. But the point is that Coughlan was a McLaren employee, which makes it a team issue. I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike was guilty, but unfortunately he cannot be held to account - only McLaren can. They're liable for all their employees actions, and as such, liable to any penalty as a result of that.
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Post by donsking on Sept 13, 2007 19:38:26 GMT
[ Question: if you were the CEO of a multimillion dollar, household name, public eye business, at the first sign of something like this would you put your hands up and say 'it's a fair cop'? With reference to Ron Dennis I've just watched what he had to say, and I honestly don't think he was involved in any way. But the point is that Coughlan was a McLaren employee, which makes it a team issue. I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike was guilty, but unfortunately he cannot be held to account - only McLaren can. They're liable for all their employees actions, and as such, liable to any penalty as a result of that. I haven't seen the press conference, but to steal a well worn phrase, Ron Dennis didn't get where he is today without learning a few wrinkles. Don't forget he's been around since it was still possible build a car in your lock up and go F1 racing. I'm sure we will never know the full ins and outs, but it's clear that Ron had to come out of this squeaky clean, otherwise there's a strong chance McLaren could've been finished by something like this. I wonder if he'll be tempted to appoint a team manager and take more of a back seat in the not too distant future................
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Post by admin on Sept 13, 2007 20:17:40 GMT
But the point is that Coughlan was a McLaren employee, which makes it a team issue. I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike was guilty, but unfortunately he cannot be held to account - only McLaren can. They're liable for all their employees actions, and as such, liable to any penalty as a result of that. And Stepney was an employee of Ferrari, so maybe they should suffer the same fate as McLaren.
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Post by schumi on Sept 13, 2007 20:33:10 GMT
But the point is that Coughlan was a McLaren employee, which makes it a team issue. I don't think anyone would disagree that Mike was guilty, but unfortunately he cannot be held to account - only McLaren can. They're liable for all their employees actions, and as such, liable to any penalty as a result of that. And Stepney was an employee of Ferrari, so maybe they should suffer the same fate as McLaren. No, Stepney's taken his punishment himself - something Coughlin didn't do. In view of the fact he couldn't meet the penalty McLaren had to take responsibility. Plus Stepney acted alone - Coughlin passed the information on to other employees, making it an internal issue.
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Post by donsking on Sept 13, 2007 20:49:53 GMT
And Stepney was an employee of Ferrari, so maybe they should suffer the same fate as McLaren. No, Stepney's taken his punishment himself - something Coughlin didn't do. In view of the fact he couldn't meet the penalty McLaren had to take responsibility. Plus Stepney acted alone - Coughlin passed the information on to other employees, making it an internal issue. Although the other side of this is the fact that teams share information all the time with the movement of staff, it's what makes their world go round. One of the best examples I can think of was when Arrows were formed by a bunch of disaffected Shadow employees; the new Arrows was not so much similar as identical to the new Shadow, largely because they were designed by the same bloke. Result? Were they excluded from the results and fined $100m? No, they turned up with a new nose cone.....................
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Post by Genghis on Sept 13, 2007 21:04:43 GMT
Coughlin was a McLaren employee and Stepney was a Ferrari employee. Ferrari receive no penalty, McLaren is excluded from the constructors championship and fined USD 100 million. And yet Schumi and DonsKing can't see the inconsistency.
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Post by Genghis on Sept 13, 2007 21:05:59 GMT
If Ron Dennis is guilty, then the bloke deserves an oscar... Big Ron was genuinely upset.
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Post by donsking on Sept 13, 2007 21:06:43 GMT
Coughlin was a McLaren employee and Stepney was a Ferrari employee. Ferrari receive no penalty, McLaren is excluded from the constructors championship and fined USD 100 million. And yet Schumi and DonsKing can't see the inconsistency. Where did I say that? I think you'll find I've been saying it's bollocks.
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Post by Genghis on Sept 13, 2007 21:11:34 GMT
DonsKing - it's obvious how I voted, I can guess how Subedei voted, therefore you must have voted "yes, a bit". Correct?
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